Toyota HSD vs P2

The P2 technology sounds great, but I wonder if using two clutches means much higher wear-and-tear rate, and that the transmission will need a costly rebuild every 100k miles or so like a traditional manual. Toyota's PSD on the other hand has no wear-and-tear parts and can theoretically last as long as the car itself.

 

I'd like to see what the mileage numbers are when they put it in something smaller, like an Elantra. The Sonata is a big puppy, on par with an Accord.

Unfortunately for the Sonata Hybrid, the new Elantra's so good that a consumer might just choose an Elantra instead of paying the significant premium for the Sonata Hybrid. The mileage is better on the hybrid, but not a great deal better. They'd have to really want the size.

 

One thing a P2 system cannot achieve is the smoothness of the HSD. I will never buy a manual again.

 

certainly... also, isnt PSD cheaper to produce than complicated transmissions with two clutches?

 

manual transmission rebuilt every 100K??
???????? are you serious or just ignorant?

manual transmissions do not need rebuilt, unless heavily abused.

Depending on a car/driver you may need a new clutch after 150-300K, but it costs alot less then rebuilding automatic.

 

Definitely! P2 hybrids will still have traditional transmission (like IMA).

The beauty of HSD is, the lack of dedicated hardware for the transmission. PSD plus two electric motors are the size of a transmission.

I don't buy the lower cost argument neither. It looks like all of them will be using the more expensive Lithium battery so, there goes the saving.

HSD components are air cooled (exception of the inverter) anyway. I don't think P2 hybrids can get away with everything air cooled. It may... since Honda IMA's inverter is air cooled but Civic hybrid costs about the same as Prius so where is the saving?

 

If it truly is better Toyota, as the preeminent hybrid manufacturer, already knows this and is working on it.

 

Depends on the numbers.
The Hyundai 6 speed auto (I think there's so manual/auto confusion going on here) is used in the non hybrid, and likely other vehicles. The PSD only goes into hybrids. So where Toyota has to make two different widgets, with corresponding doubling of assembly lines, workforce, etc., for their vehicle line up, Hyundai only has to make one widget. Per unit the PSD should be cheaper in terms of materials and production time, but there are more variables to consider.

That's a simplistic description, but highlights the reality of car part prices. I have replaced wheel bearings and rotor/hubs on my non-ABS vehicles. Despite having more metal and electronics attached, the ABS parts are cheaper.

 

It's not the same as a manually clutched manual. Try driving a dsg transmission to get an idea of the feel. I don't expect it will be as good as a porsche, its hundai and 6 speeds, but the motor torque should improve the feeling as well. Think of it as a 6 speed automatic with a motor flywheel and electronics instead of a torque converter. Some will prefer the connectedness others with prefer a cvt or ecvt.

Remove the torque converter and add a motor and different clutches. It seems like a small adition to cost. Look at the difference between a Tch or FFH and their conventional siblings to get an idea of cost differences. The P2 also requires electronics and a lithium battery. Both hyundai and nissan say it is cheaper, but they don't have the scale of toyota. Perhaps toyota is simply taking a much bigger profit on the TCH, but I doubt it.

When you talk ima, I think honda and their cvt, which is not good. The psd is supperior so it doesn't matter if it cost a little more. Think of this more as a dsg transmission. You can downsize the motors to get the same boost but must put in your transmission hardware. If you already have a line doing the transmissions there is much less engineering involved.

We can estimate the cost of the battery from lg's pricing to gm at around $900/car. I am not sure what toyota's costs are for nimh in the camry, but I doubt that it is less than $500.

Hyundai said in their interview with PM that toyota looked at the technology before, but the electronics were not ready when they developed the gen I and gen II prius. I have no doubt they are experimenting in the lab, but don't think they will shift unless competition starts outselling them. HSd is always improving also.

There is also NRE and testing that will be less expensive.

 

Toyota could feasibly add a gear box, and/or clutches to the PSD and its various components, but chooses not to. It would increase efficiency, but at the expense of mechanical complexity and durability.

 

Toyota does this in some of the Lexus hybrids. I doubt it reduces durability. P2 may be better on these lower volume higher horsepower models. On the prius I doubt it makes any sense. There is not a sister car to share the transmission with, the eCVT allows for the best acceleration for the lowest horsepower, and the car is hp constrained.

 

There is! The Auris HSD shipped about 45,000 units in 6 months last year, the CT200h has it, the prius V will have it, and maybe the prius C and/or yaris hybrid will get it too......

 

"With a single motor, two clutches and a standard transmission, it turns out. Mostly escaping notice, a new crop of 2011 hybrids"

how is using clutches again the next lever in hybrids? i more thinks its a step back
technology of the 80s

 

well HSD is high scale operation too... considering the size of some engine/transmission plants, i dont think there are huge savings over 100,000 pieces/year anyway.

i guess it could be difference between using P2 and using HSD-type where they have to license it from Toyota and get AISIN to build components.

 

The Prius PHV as well should have many common components, including the power split device.

 

Computers can rev match the engine to the motor, and the motor to the transmission. It shouldn't be a major problem.

 

There is no "automatic" transmission in a prius to use p2 on, it would have to be redesigned, so for the prius it would be more expensive. There is volume in the hsd. I'm sorry if that was not clear. In the lexus GS and LS hybrids there is low volume and a transmission, and the P2 strategy makes a lot of sense. We can compare the new M hybrid with the gs to see how these things compete for both handling, fuel economy, and price above the non-hybrid sister car.

Nissan stated cost and weight, licensing fees could be a part of this cost. As horsepower increases the hsd needs bigger and bigger motors. So while a prius sized hsd might be cheaper for toyota, the sonata p2 may be less expensive to hyundai than the camry hsd is to toyota.

+1

Transmissions have changed a great deal since the 80s. Shifting is faster. The P2 does away with the torque converter on the Hyundai, and precise engine control electronics now exist to rev mach and choose the right gear.

 

It isn't just numbers produced. It's getting the different components into the car. On the Camry and Fusion, you are switching in an entirely different transmission. A bulkier and heavier part than just the torque convertor on the Sonota, which adds to the shipping and handling cost of the part. The smaller size of the P2 components and sharing of transmissions, likely reduced the costs of production line development. I bet it's cheaper and quicker for Hyundai to switch a line from conventional model to hybrid than Ford or Toyota.

Now the simplicity of the HSD is elegant, but we may have became too enamoured by it. More components doesn't automatically mean less durability for a system. The majority here likely had a car with an automatic before the hybrid. Most of our friends and family still do.

Now, out of all those cars, how many have actually had a transmission fail?

I put over a 130k miles on a '96 Taurus without a tranny problem. The HHR has 92k miles. No problems and I've been abusing it with neutral and engine off coasting for the last 40k.
Of all the cars that people I've known had, I can only think of 3 where the transmission failed. One was a 2000s V6 Accord, a model with tranny issues, which had also been in 2 floods. A Trans Am that had a manufacturing defect in the transmission. Then the only one likely due to component wear out, was a 1981 Blazer with a non-electronic transmission which lost its overdrive.

 

I think large part of that "cost benefit" is due to the fact that these companies produce very low number of hybrids and would have to buy 3rd party components and pay license fees as well.