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Some real-world numbers, please.

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by daniel, Apr 22, 2011.

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  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Now that Nissan is totally screwing early Leaf order-placers, treating us like mushrooms, giving me a July delivery estimate, which is six months later than originally promised, and 4 months later than people who ordered three months after I did but already have their cars, and giving me nothing but lies and contradictory statements, I am interested in getting some real-world numbers about the Plug-in-Prius (PiP).

    In particular, what will be the mpg on long highway trips at 65 mph, after the grid charge is depleted? My principal driving in my 2004 Prius is for my hiking trips to Canada, about 6 to 7 hours of driving each way. If it's better than my 2004 Prius (around 51 mpg) I'd consider trading up. If it's not better, there would be no point for me. My Zap Xebra pure EV already goes more than twice the distance of the PiP's EV range, though the Xebra has a top speed of about 35 mph and is kind of sluggish getting there.

    Second, after the grid charge is depleted and the car reverts to normal HSD operation, will the additional batteries be used or not? In mountainous terrain, it is very helpful to have added battery capacity for regen on the long downhill stretches. If the additional batteries are not used in HSD mode, then they are just dead weight for most of the trip. I'll forgive that if the overall highway mpg is better than my 2004, but if it's not, I'd consider the design badly flawed, since I see no reason not to make use of that battery capacity. I recall, way back at the beginning, the first folks to install added battery capacity, even without grid charging, observed improved mpg. Cost was a factor, explaining why Toyota chose the battery size it did, but with the PiP having a bigger battery, it would be incomprehensible not to use it.

    Does anybody know if it does?

    Does anybody know the highway mpg AFTER the grid charge is depleted?
     
    #1 daniel, Apr 22, 2011
  2. gwmort

    gwmort Active Member

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    I don't know the PiP answers for you.

    I can tell you on the Volt once the original charge is depleted the car maintains a fairly low state of charge rather than using gas to recharge the battery to full, I believe it has to do with limiting cycles more than anything else. In your example of extensive regen though that would get stored in the battery. We also have a "mountain mode" that sets that state of charge a little higher so there is always reserve power for the climbing, and f you put on mountain mode once already below the SoC point it will use gas to raise the battery charge to it.

    FYI your prius gets better mileage on that long run than a Volt would
     
    #2 gwmort, Apr 22, 2011
  3. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    I provided some real-world numbers in my review: Dr. Rangelove (or

    I also provided daily real-world numbers in my log thread: http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/82492-my-real-world-experience-phv-blog.html

    Specifically, to answer your first question, I drove the PiP from Madison, WI to my home and averaged 71.5mpg starting with a completely depleted EV battery. I wasn't on an interstate, and averaged 45mph, including stops and starts.
    http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...al-world-experience-phv-blog.html#post1153154

    To answer your second question: No.
    The test units we drove in Torrance would not regen to the EV batteries. The test unit I drove (and others drove) would not regen to the EV batteries. The story from Toyota is that once the EV distance is reached and the EV batteries depleted, there is a physical disconnect which makes it absolutely impossible to regen the EV batteries. None of us like it, but that's what they say.
     
    #3 TonyPSchaefer, Apr 22, 2011
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I did some 70+mph highway driving and averaged 40-50mpg, really couldn't tell any difference from my 2nd gen prius on the same route. IOW, the added weight doesn't seem to impact things much.

    My response to the issue of recharging the EV batteries is 1)we don't know that the production model will be a similar design, it may be a single battery and thus you would be able to regen/charge it to your heart's content and to the limits of physics.
    2)It's really irrelevant. While it might 'feel good' to think you could regen the entire pack you would have to do a full regen down a 20k foot steep incline to get anywhere close to doing so. Recall that it is quite rare to fill the capacity of the current Prius and it only allows you to regen to 80% (from a low of 40%)--thus 40% of it's total capacity is rarely regenerated even in very hilly steep areas--I've done it a number of times, but not in routine driving. Even driving down from the Eisenhower Tunnel in Colorado you don't typically fill the battery b/c there are enough flat areas that you drive normally and it taps the excess charge in the battery. And, finally, regen not a good goal, you should be trying to avoid it unless the alternatives are not acceptable.

    Nissan should not be pissing off the midwest folks--it doesn't impact me much, but it's not right that later hand raisers get their car before earlier ones.
     
    #4 efusco, Apr 22, 2011
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    The 5 - 10 reports I have read (including Evan and Tony) all say that battery depleted PiP MPG is about the same as Prius G2 and G3. That in itself is a bit off, since we know that G3 is about 5% more economical at 70+ speeds than the G2. That small discrepancy aside, I feel confident in saying though that the PiP is not going to put your '04 MPG on the highway to shame, and you would not think the money well spent for this reason alone.

    More regen capacity is interesting, and uncertain. The beta cars have all had 3 traction packs and as mentioned only one pack took regen. Toyota has hinted that they may consolidate the arrangement but details have not been published. My sense is that if 3 packs becomes two, the larger pack used for grid charging will not take regen. In your case missing out on regen a couple mountains a year might annoy you at the time, but your annual fuel consumption will not even notice.

    PiP aside, I spent a couple minutes looking at an EV SMARTcar yesterday and talking with a sales guy. The one detail that caught my attention was that right now 250 cars are being leased across the US (and my town has ONE!)
    The deal is you sign up for a 4 year lease at $599 a month, but in about one year you can apply your completed payments to the purchase of a 2012 model in exchange for the car leased now. The fellow guessed that the 2012 model would retail at ~ $29k before tax subsidies. I have to admit some temptation, but more than anything I do not trust SMARTcar reliabiltiy so I will pass. The deal however is perhaps the best going if only cost to play is considered.

    As an aside, I run out of regen battery capacity just about every day I drive due to an approximate 800 ft drop from home to the city or highway. The blessing of sending ICE energy produced during engine warm-up to the battery and not wasted also means I have little room in the battery for my descent a couple of minutes later.
     
    #5 SageBrush, Apr 22, 2011
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Thanks to everyone for all the info. Sounds like I'll be keeping my 2004, but if it were to get totaled and I needed a new stinker for those long road trips to Canada, I'd be happy with the PiP.

    Evan: Although I don't know actual SoC since my CAN-View broke and I took it out of the car, there are several places on those Canada trips where the battery gets to 8 bars and stays there a long time as I coast and brake down long hills. Sadly, I have no way to know when I should really switch to B mode because I cannot tell from feel when braking is regen and when it's friction. I've never been able to feel a transition. OTOH, it's true that these times are few in the course of a year.

    Tony: Thanks for the interesting "Dr. Rangelove" report. Given that I'm willing to pay a considerable amount of money to have my normal daily driving be 100% electric, but still need a stinker to get to Canada, I guess a PHEV does not make sense for me. It looks like the Leaf is not in the stars for me, but I could possible get the EV Porsche back in a month, and that with the 2004 Prius is probably all the cars I really need.

    I did sign up for the PiP on Toyota's web site, however, and I'll be keeping an eye on developments.

    P.S. I had the 2004 Prius in for its 30,000 mile service (actual about 32,000 miles) and they told me my brake pads are still at 50%. Don't know how this compares to other folks. But I don't baby the car or P&G. As John1701a suggested way back when, I "just drive it." I've been driving it more than 7 years (though mostly I drive the Xebra) and I suppose it's got another 14 years left in it.
     
    #6 daniel, Apr 22, 2011
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I'd call 50% at 32k miles terrible wear on a Prius. At 100k I had only about 30% wear (ie. 70% left).
     
    #7 efusco, Apr 22, 2011
  8. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I've had mine for 6 1/2 years and the dealer asked me if I ever use the brakes. Why brake when you can coast or glide?

    ;)
     
    #8 drash, Apr 22, 2011
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  9. gwmort

    gwmort Active Member

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    I'm thinking you'd have a lot less wear if you use B on those mountain descents regardless of whether you need the regen.
     
    #9 gwmort, Apr 23, 2011
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  10. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Well, as I said, I "just drive it." I see no reason myself for driving a Prius differently than I drove my old Honda Civic. The fact that the Prius gets maybe 30% to 50% better FE than the Civic, and is the most efficient gasoline car of its size on the road, prompts some folks to play the video game of trying to get the best possible FE. I have no criticism of that. But I bought the car in January in North Dakota and my commute was five miles / ten minutes, and there was no way I could compete in that game. Now I never make short trips in the Prius because I only drive it when I need to go farther than the Xebra can make it (except for the fairly rare days when there is snow or ice on the streets of Spokane) but the habit of "just driving it" is settled in.

    Now that most of my Prius driving is highway, I suspect that I'm using the brakes a lot less than I did for the first 3 years, before I got the little three-legged clown car. I probably won't need brake pads before I trade in the car in 5 or 10 years.
     
    #10 daniel, Apr 24, 2011
  11. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Even "just driving it" you shouldn't have that much wear unless you're a gun it and brake late overriding the regen every time kind of guy. I actually suspect that your dealer was throwing out a random percentage b/c if he really wanted you to know how much brake you had left he'd have given you a specific measurement. IMO it would be highly unusual to see that much wear at 32k unless you were a really abusive driver, which I suspect you are not.
     
    #11 efusco, Apr 24, 2011
  12. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    No, I'm not a "gun-it-and-brake-late" driver. Most of the time I brake gently enough that I've always assumed I was doing mostly regen braking. But I have to say that I've NEVER been able to detect the transition.

    So maybe the dealer was just giving me a very ballpark number. Or maybe the kid who actually did the work didn't know any better.

    Or maybe I'm a worse driver than I thought. :confused:
     
    #12 daniel, Apr 24, 2011
  13. psusi

    psusi Junior Member

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    50% wear at 32k miles, when the majority of that is highway miles would be ridiculously bad. My first car was a '92 mitsubishi gallant I got in '95. It had 100k miles on it and still had the factory brakes. I guess the guy who owned it before me mostly drove on the highway.

    I'd have the breaks checked again.

    Also someone mentioned using B mode going downhill and regen. My understanding from reading the manual is that B actually uses the engine to slow you down, and does not regen any more power, so you want to use it only when going down a big hill so you don't need to ride on the actual breaks ( as much ), but otherwise avoid it as it wastes energy as heat instead of charging the battery.
     
    #13 psusi, Jun 29, 2011
  14. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    It does charge the battery. I would argue it is on par or only slightly below what you get from normal regen. Test it out and let us know how it worked for you.
     
    #14 F8L, Jul 5, 2011
  15. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Daniel didn't say his brake pads were at 50%, he said they (I'm assuming it was a dealer or other shop) told him his brake pads were at 50%. Big difference.
     
    #15 xs650, Jul 5, 2011
  16. SlowTurd

    SlowTurd I LIKE PRIUS'S

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    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh-l74EMZcs&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Fully Charged Plug In Prius episode 008‬‏[/ame]
     
    #16 SlowTurd, Jul 9, 2011
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  17. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Nice Video, Slow. Thanks.

    Took me awhile to figure out why Llewellen was familiar.

    Scrapheap Challenge!
     
    #17 xs650, Jul 9, 2011
  18. blacksapphirez

    blacksapphirez Member

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    nice!
     
    #18 blacksapphirez, Jul 11, 2011
  19. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Speaking of real-world numbers, everybody here knows the Plug-In Prius has a 9.54 gal gas tank, right?

    I was a little stunned at first but then I'm thinking the battery pack might necessitate a smaller fuel tank capacity. But then again after having a Gen II Prius for so long with its bladder, I'm use to only being able to put in only 8 or 9 gallons at a time.
    :rolleyes:
     
    #19 drash, Jul 14, 2011
  20. John2010

    John2010 Junior Member

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    Where does it say that the PHV Prius has a 9.54 gallon gas tank? The range on the web site is based on 9.54 gallons but it doesn't say that the tank is 9.54 gallons. When the gen 3 Prius is down to 0 miles to empty it takes about 9.54 gallons to fill it. Let's hope that they did not change the tank size.

    John
     
    #20 John2010, Jul 15, 2011
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