MOJAVE DESERT: Solar project would disturb thousands of tortoises

I think that's ridiculous. If you have ever had a turtle, they are not nice creatures.

You are always going to disturb nature when you build something. Oh well.

 

It's the giant radscorpions they need to worry about.

In all seriousness, Tortoises? Wth? I'm sure no-one cared about them when the golf range was put in, or the Vegas strip. Did the homes in Primm get built round tortoises? no.

The Mojave desert is pretty smart big, the tortoises can just be moved/left to move.

 

One big problem with these CSP projects is they are huge. There location really needs to take endangered species into account.

The quesion is do we need to build something this big, or will 100 MW projects be more practical and less invasive. I don't judge nature by how loveable it is

Golf coures don't block out all the land.

CSP project stakeholder engagement: Hard lessons dealt | CSP Today

I'm wondering how much damage the project is doing.

 

This is what I was trying to get across the other day. Energy production takes a lot of land. If you want a solar powered Prius, you need to sacrifice something to that want. Which may mean that you need to kill some tortoises. or other animals, or humans. Just 'moving' those tortoises is not an option. If there is some viable tortoise habitat, it already has other tortoises in it, moving these there means 1/2 (best case) of them die. Or you could move some humans out of tortoise habitat, and give it back to the tortoises. Anyone think that is going to fly?

 

Yeah, it's a decision. Is solar power production instead of coal (or oil) worth killing some tortoises? yes, i think so.

 

It appears the Desert Tortoise already has vast areas set aside for its protection.... and those installing this solar power plant have amassed a large group of biologists to both monitor, mitigate, and relocate reptiles of interest found within the project area.

Desert Tortoise Preserve Committee, Inc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/business/energy-environment/17WILD.html?

 

When you put it that way, its hard not to agree, but...... is that really the choice? It sounds like if the plant was 200MW instead of 390 MW the habitat for the endangered species would not have nearly as much impact. Add to this the fact california is not adding any coal, so it is CSP, or PV or wind or gas or geothermal.

So how about 200 MW solar and upgrade the gas part of the plant to cc fast start 200 MW. You can probably build 100 MW of wind and 30 MW of PV and impact a few birds. That new plan would probably be about the same capital cost as the 390 MW solar + gas current plan, but cause less of an environmental burden.

 

Not that I'd advocate messing with the tortoise population, but one aspect to consider is how many lifeforms would be saved by putting in the solar array? Hopefully it would mean less oil production and use, less habitat destruction elsewhere, less warming....there are many factors to take into account.

 

It is always windy in Mojave.. we went through it in June last year and there were 6 tractor trailers blown off that day.

 

They should put in a couple of oases out there and see the flora & fauna flourish.

 

But the birds will die, and the buffeting sound of the turbines will scare the turtles anyways. It's obvious the only solution to not harm any more wildlife is to strip the land of coal inch by inch, ferry it across country on trains then throw it in a giant steam furnace!

 

Safe clean nuclear power has the smallest footprint per Watt.

 

Unfortunately americans are too paranoid, fearful, and ignorant of science and technology to approve more nuclear plants anytime soon.

A new nuclear plant proposed about 40 miles from here got all the government approvals but was just rejected by the city after a public outcry. One of the big arguments is that they don't want "anymore radiation exposure than they already got from Japan". :smash:

 

So, people who think 'safe, clean nuclear power' is an oxymoron are paranoid, fearful, and ignorant?

Pffft.

You can tell I don't think very highly of that analysis.

 

Yes

And yes.

 

a large centralized facility is probably much cheaper and will generate more power and i am all for that. the desert is a huge place and relocation is a valid option, but i cant help but think that maybe we should start with home.

how many bare office roofs, factory roofs, home roofs do we have.

this plant would supply how many homes? half a million? i am willing to bet we have 20 times that many suitable roofs. granted the piece it patch work project will be 10 times the cost and maybe not the way to go when money is so tight.

someone somewhere posted wind generators that were basically poles that sway in the wind on a flexible base. the electricity is generated in the base, and there is minimal footprint. great for in town as it allows much greater density of these poles due to their much smaller footprint and less turbulence created. lots of options, all different scales.

and another thing... if these things survived for 65 million years, what makes you think dusting off a few thousand is going to do them in now?

 

when the people in favor of renewables start arguing against it, it's doomed until the next crisi comes along.

 

Dave, this is a CSP plant. You can't put those on rooftops, esp not 390 MW CSP plants. CSP w/NG CC has some massive advantages over PV from a utility's point of view. Not that putting PV on lots of rooftops (esp large flat ones) isn't something that we should be doing, but a plant like the one proposed can provide dispatchable power, which is something that PV arrays can't really do.