MOJAVE DESERT: Solar project would disturb thousands of tortoises

What an idiotic statement.I am literally laughing at you.

 

I agree with a lot of your points, Dave. If we could lease our rooftops to a private company willing to put solar panels on them, that would be great. Perhaps the lease is only paid in a partial reduction of electrical bill. Still that is a start.

I like this better than selling/giving an easement to the public utilities. They'll find a way to have our roofs and charge us for it too. They are a (sanctioned) monopoly after all.

I can't tell if he's being saracastic or not. I originally thought he was.

 

No sarcasm here.
When the "footprint"is radioactive and is spread over the globe by the jetstream.
Thats a rather large footprint.

 

I meant Richard. I understand your point. I am no longer pro-nuclear. Hence my recent interest in Solar Panels.

 

I can't imagine how the solar arrays themselves would harm the tortoises. Probably the construction itself would cause the most disruption. Someone more qualified than me might be able to consult as to how build these arrays with minimal impact? Or how about hiring a team of biologists, rounding them up, housing the turtles during construction and then releasing them when complete. They must be pretty hardy, they live in the friggin desert after all.

 

That's what I'm guessing also.

If I were a desert turtle, I would be happy to loiter under the arrays as it provides useful shade that is normally scarce in the desert

 

Is this shift in attitude because of the recent events in Japan?

Just a guess, but since the article said these turtles lived underground for the most part, then perhaps there exists a series of tunnels or burrows under the sand. When installing the panels, you will need to secure it into the ground. Probably a large hole dug with an auger then filled with cement. I would think that along with the large construction equipment driving all around would have an effect on underground tunneling.

 

Yes.

I mean you can convince me Nuclear is safe 99.999% of the time. I won't disagree.

It's picking up pennies (or watts) in front of a bulldozer.

 

So would you only use power sources that are 99.9991% safe or better?

 

There has been a lot of successful effort to protect sea turtle nests in Florida. Accomplishing this with the massive tourist traffic that EVERY beach experiences is being done with a lot of concerned people knowing what to do and how to do it. The ultimate ideal is no humans on Florida beaches. The workable ideal is what we have.

Is the issue with the desert tortoises primarily motivated by deep concern for just a single creature or primarily as a technique for opposing any development?

 

I'm a big wind proponent. I wasn't being sarcastic. Wiind turbines do need to take account of the animals in the area, but they don't blanket the ground like csp. If the problem is that this CSP site is too big for the turtles, shrinking it and adding wind seems like it would have less environmental impact. I added in more gas too since these power sources are subject to variations and california needs more peak electrical production.

 

the biggest obstacle i see to "solar on every roof" is the huge upfront expense. but what if we leased the roof. in exchange we get a percentage of the power generated or a reduction in the rates you pay. after a set point, you have the option to buy at a much reduced price kinda like...kinda like...leasing a Nissan LEAF!!! (aint it funny how that car pops up all the time??)

this provides a huge benefit to the power company, it does not change the ecological footprint. no pests are harmed (not thinking turtles are mind you, but they do have to eat something right?) it also puts a ton of people to work on a project that has undeniably good long term benefits to this country (yes, a thinly veiled comment on the "need" for most of the current government projects)

so, like? its not like we dont need the humongo plant in the desert, we do, but that wont be enough either. we can only transplant turtle so many times before we run out of places to put them...think Indian Reservations if you not sure what i mean

 

I also believe in saving the environment but again at what cost? We as a country are falling behind in all aspects of technology and alternative fuels to power our growing needs. It just seems that anytime we come up with a way to try and ween ourselves off of some other form of pollutant there is always some radical tree hugger against it?

 

There is also the cost. You need to remember the solar numbers work because of subsidies and its retail rates. If we get a lot of solar you will only be able to get wholesale rates and subsidies will need to go down. Solar is still expensive.

Germany has 2% solar, maybe we can afford to subsidies this to 2% of the power. Its not going to provide the big power out there. I like roof top solar because it uses available real estate and is empowering. But we shouldn't fool ourselves that we can afford the massive subsidies to get it everywhere.

 

so we can afford to pay $4 gas?? oh but wait!! its not $4 gas. we have to borrow that $4 to buy the gas. that money leaves the country, never to return...oh wait!! thats not true, it does return, to fund sleeper terrorist cells and they pay very well and in CASH!!

when we dont pay (or even know) what the true price of energy is, its hard to determine what "we cant afford".

i have a blog...it is full of me and nothing else. no facts, no figures, nothing. but that is what blogs are for. my latest based on a recent visit. so u can skip it if you want, i am just ranting

On Thursday, April 21st, I had the chance to show my Leaf at the Washington State Economic Development Council Office. As always, I wrote up a statement Taylored to the Audience at hand to show how the Leaf could work for them specifically along with the standard cost/performance data. It went like this;

Thinking about getting a Leaf to save money and you are not sure its “worth” the risk? Get a Leaf to save America then!! When you buy gas made from foreign oil, most of that money leaves the country never to return. We must then borrow that dollar, most likely from another foreign country. Our foreign oil bill this year will approach half a Trillion dollars. We can no longer afford to continue on this path. The interest from the money we are borrowing is eroding the financial foundation of this country and is indirectly related to high housing costs, transfer of corporate taxes to another country, the inability to pay the government or to fund vital social services.

Why does a Leaf help to alleviate these problems? Every dollar I spend on electricity goes to an American company who pays American workers who spend their paychecks on American services and pay American taxes. Eventually that dollar will return to me in my paycheck so I can spend it again, over and over and over. This dollar does not have to be borrowed because it was EARNED!!

We as a country must move away from borrowing money and going back to earning money. We need to reduce corporate taxes so companies will come back and pay a FAIR share instead of the highest corporate tax in the civilized world. We do that by reducing our debt load by reducing our foreign oil bill.

Being able to restrict our usage to domestic oil only requires a HUGE movement to mass transit, car pooling and Electric Vehicles. Most find the first two to be very inconvenient. I am here to tell you that for most of you, the Nissan Leaf offers a “no compromise” transportation solution. Now if one of the first two options is better for you, I am behind you 100%!!. I am not a salesman. I am an American.

Now, I am not sure what I was trying to prove. Here was a state agency that determined tax rates, collected taxes, etc. They were fully aware of the imbalance of trade in this country. It was their job to make recommendation to the State Budget Gurus. So, I was like preaching to the Preacher!!. But that was only the beginning.

When I arrived, the first thing I noticed was that there was ample parking. In fact, their parking lot was barely half full. VERY unusual for a state agency. But I soon learned why.

Here was an office that practiced what they preached. They knew that foreign oil was not a sustainable option. As I talked with the workers there, I started taking an informal poll in my head.

Nearly a dozen rode their bicycles to work, including two whose trip was 25 miles ONE WAY!! ya, thats right; works in Olympia but lives in Tacoma and rides a bike EVERY DAY!! 3 others walked to work. 4 more lived in single vehicle households. WOW! This would be a tough audience. They dont need cars of any kind!

 

That's not what I said. You can't frame the question that way.

You can say a pillow fight is 99.999% safe. What is the consequence of the .001% failure?

You can also say that handling a rabid pit bull with a muzzle is 99.999% safe. After all, a 1/100000 chance of something bad happening is really in your favor. You can perform that action on average 99,999 times without something bad happening. But what are the consequences of the .001% failure?

It's like the killer whale that killed his trainer. Low probability, high consequence event.

99.999% and 99.9991% are just numbers.

Do you have a nuclear power plant in your back yard?

 

I'm not quite sure how you got that reaction from what I wrote. You were proposing we greatly expand solar by leasing our roofs. There is a 30% federal subsidy then I am assuming you expect the utility to pay retail rates. Here with power costs from wind that is still too expensive so there is another state and local subsidy for solar. That is what I am saying we can not afford. Why is solar so much better than wind and natural gas that it needs even more subsidies. I would like to see this CSP built to see if it can compete with only a 30% subsidy and grid expansion to wholesale power. I just think maybe its footprint should be smaller. Maybe in 2020 prices for PV will come down enough but we can not afford to mandate a big percentage of solar right now. I would be surprised if even in california where solar numbers work out the best if they get to 5% solar by 2020.

 

i think federal and local government should subsidize 100%. we lease the roof from the owner for say a decade, government takes all the power. then after the decade, the owner armed with real performance data, is offered the option to purchase the system at a discounted price.

this is way more money because its a piece work solution, but its a solution that generates earned income. its all home grown and addresses a growing energy need which is fueled by pushing EVs and PHEVs

what i am suggesting is expensive sure, i have no doubt it will be hard to fund. but the alternative of continuing to finance foreign oil?? is it really an option?

**edit** i am also not suggesting we abandon the desert project either, we need much more than both anyway.

as far as turtles go...i said it once, i say it again, they have survived 65 million years, they dont need any help. 99.99% of all species will perish from this Earth. if its a question of the turtle or me, all i can say is "let me take your pic so i can remember u before u go"

 

LOL I like the way you think !!!!!:rockon: