Finally, A Journalist with His Noggin on Straight

The differences are that locomotives don't have a storage battery, the diesel engine runs continuously (no EV mode), and of course that they're diesel rather than gas. Plus the motivation for the diesel-electric architecture was not fuel efficiency, it was torque to get extremely heavy trains moving from a dead stop, and eliminating the need for a transmission with different gears for different speeds. Not defending the Volt, just sayin'.

 

I read the article and I think these numbers are not acceptable!

Also, It is likely that the Prius PHV may get a higher combined EPA rating than the regular Prius thru EV regen, and that would put the PHV about 20mpg more than the Volt per gallon in HV mode.

So the Volt is good for EV short in-Town trips, while the Prius/Prius PHV is good for In-Town and long distance trips.

 

Also, i assume the many-wheel-drive is easier done with local electric motors instead of a multi-wheel transmission and gears and a mess of driveshafts.

 

Some new trains actually do have storage batteries for regenerative braking. They are getting some serious regeneration numbers for it as well.

 

Be nice to know what the official numbers are for the future Prius plug-in.
Currently the Chevy Volt is in production and the Prius plug-in is not...

Comparing the cars with their range, the Volt seems to have the advantage with no ice warm up necessary, and better range...

But until we know the final production of the Prius, it's all speculative, and of course the price will be a big determination..

 

Place of manufacture is different than place of design. It's like buying bubba gump shrimp in Japan. Doesn't make it Japanese.

Both of my Hondas were built in North America. One in Ontario, CA the other in Ohio, USA I believe.

And since robots do most of the work, I don't care where or when they work.

 

Wow you didn't even try to vail that racism.

Japanese and Germans do good car designs. If you think there is racial superiority in design look at the teams. There are people of all descents in America. We have some of the best engineers and scientists in the world. In fact parts of the prius were originally designed in america.

I would prefer to buy a car made in america. I would like to employ my fellow citizens especially in this time of high unemployment and the strong yen. I would prefer if my prius had been built in Mississippi. I have worked for a German corporation and consulted to Japanese and European companies.

 

Didn't know that, it sounds great. I suppose the extra weight of the batteries is more than offset by the reduced wear and tear on the brakes, plus even MORE torque on call for startup.
I should amend it to:
"The differences are that 1960's diesel-electric locomotives didn't have a storage battery..."

 

My point is that it doesn't really matter whether the PHV beats the Volt. It has to beat the Prius HEV, LEAF, other cars, bicycles (including e-bicycles) and public transportation.

 

It's not racism, it is culture (i.e. of the company's background not the workers'). If you have worked with German and Japanese companies as I have as well, you will know there are very different mentalities between them and then between american companies and either. I would rather have a car that is designed to have very high MTBF versus one that is good enough to get out the door now. Reputations are earned over time.

And I would rather employ the best company. I don't care if you are my neighbour or a smurf. If you make crap, I am not going to buy it.

 

The batteries are light compared to the weight of the trains. Simply making it diesel electric allows for all that start up torque, but you might as well reuse that energy captured in braking.

 

This GE site (dated 6/24/2011) suggests that hybrid diesel-electric locos are still just in the design stage:
Hybrid Locomotive

In the fact sheet, they point out that reusing braking energy isn't the only motivation. Better performance at altitude (where the diesels lose power) and up steep inclines (where added oomph is needed) are mentioned. Perhaps they would also use the batteries to start from a dead stop, which might cut pollution by not having to run the diesels at full throttle??

They say batteries would add 2000hp to a 4400hp diesel. A very rough calculation: the 13hp NiMH battery in the Insight-I weighs 85lbs, so a 2000hp NiMH battery might weigh 6.5 tons? Probably less if they use Li batteries. The loco weighs 207 tons, so that's only 3% of the loco's weight. Actually the relevant weight is the weight of the whole train, which is far more.

One apparent error in the fact sheet is the calculation of the regen energy based on the weight of the loco: it should be the weight of the whole train (which of course is variable). And I wonder if they factored in the efficiency of recapture of regen??

 

This reasoning assumes that the car will NEVER be used for anything but commuting. It ignores the fact that the gas mileage becomes relevant if the car is used beyond the EV range.

And if in fact the car is NEVER used beyond the EV range, why haul around a heavy ICE and associated equipment?? Why not simply ditch the ICE and get a lighter car, reduce costs, and perhaps put the cost/weight savings towards a larger battery and greater EV range, as the Leaf has done?

We need to get past the "one-vehicle-that-does-everything" mentality. This is what got us to our current state: I routinely see gigantic glittering Suburbans, Escalades, and the like teetering around here with the sole occupant being a tiny Mom at the helm. We're starting to see higher energy costs force the development of different types of vehicles optimized for different purposes, plus increased renting/sharing to cover less frequent uses. They will be very different, so evaluating each for how well it covers all possible uses isn't helpful; we need to look at which uses each handles well.

To me, the problem with the Volt is that it tries to be BOTH an efficient moderate-EV AND an efficient vehicle for longer trips. If the ICE were eliminated, it would probably have greater range. I suspect that conversion losses due to its (apparent?) inability to power itself mechanically from the ICE may limit its longer-range fuel economy.

P.S. I didn't like the article either. Why must today's auto journalists use so much hyperbole? I didn't like the NY Times opinion piece either. I'm sick of the "I'm just an average guy, don't know anything about cars" pieces on cars. Would they publish pieces on, say, politics written from an aw-shucks viewpoint of knowing nothing about politics? Oh wait, maybe they do?

 

When ever Bob Lutz says something, it's always good for entertainment:

It wasn't too long ago he was swearing Toyota lost money on every Prius sold. Wait a bit and always be able to hear the next bit of mis-speak, from Mr. Contradictory.

 

It sounds like GE's hybrid locomotive is still in the design stage. My business partner rode on a hybrid locomotive while in Innsbruck for the Passivhaus conference. He spoke with someone familiar with them (his family being prominent in the original electrification of railroads in Eastern Europe, he gets into these conversations often).

 

I'm sure diesel/electric train technology is an efficient and effective way to move massive loads. I love trains.

It makes you wonder, though. Did the Volt engineers, thinking of fat-arsed American drivers and passengers, actually attempt to scale that same train technology to passenger cars? And if that was their reasoning, does it make any sense?

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

 

What would be even better [pipedream] would be a modular ICE that could be purchased and hooked up when needed for long trips [/pipedream]

I agree that one car cannot do it all but if I take 10 weekend trips a year I cannot justify a seperate 20k dollar car when my 40k electric doesn't make the cut.

If I had a 7.5k option of a modular engine for my 40k car that could be installed in, lets say 2 hours, by your average non-idiot, then it would become a more viable option compared to even rentals.

If a rental cost me 150 for every weekend trip I would spend 1500 a year on rentals and over a 5 year payoff it would equal my modular ICE option.

 

Not sure why you think it is a pipedream. People with EVs have been hauling generators behind them for a couple decades now.

Really all you need is a generator inverter and a plug preferably in the back bumper.

 

Regen brakes are mature locomotive parts, they are used to give more braking control and often the power is just dumped into a pack of resitors. On electric trains this power is often returned. On a train that makes many stops like delhi metro they estimate this regen saves 30% of the power. In longer haul applications its much lower. There isn't a power reason to use batteries from a stop, other than to increase acceleration, but you could reduce exhaust polution in stations and wait to pollute more until you pulled into more open space. These trains do produce tiny amounts of pollution compared to steam locomotives, so imagine when some of those old stations were designed.

You need to go to ge's data sheet for that, I'm sure the batteries pack is lithium and quite different than the insight. But the weight and size are small compared to the full train.

Don't know but I wouldn't worry too much about it. There is a lot of power, but the key is how often it stops and from what speeds compared to
running. The reduction in price of battery packs and the increases of prices of diesel fuel are what is driving this.

The complaints seem almost religious when people say if you are going phev you should go straight ev. What if you think the leaf is ugly, and don't have money for a tesla? There is a mamouth elephant in the room when it comes to extending the range of an EV with a engine or fuel cell. The range can drop, people can forget to recharge, there is a need for other trips. So the idea of a light extending power source is a no brainer. Yes, Nissan is even playing with range extenders with the leaf, but we may not get them in the US because of the CARB crazy difference in warranty requirements when you add an engine. Most people don't really have all the extra cars prius chat seems to think. Most environmentally correct people would rather have 1 car than 3. It just isn't all that convenient to rent a car every time you want to go further. The price difference in the new tech is $1/mo in lease rate. Sales price and utility are highly dependent on the manufacturer. I have rented/borrowed trucks, but their use is much more predictable.

agree here

But I liked the NY Times piece better, which showed enthusiasm current oil reducing tech, rather than this tired, new is bad wait the old is evolving and is better. Let's get people into volts, and leafs, and prii, and when they arrive prius phvs c-max energis. The idea of building an ev with a genererator when the battery gets low isn't an idea to bash, but one that because of falling battery prices and better electronics may get us to us less oil.

Ha! Its an old idea. I think since the 20s. GM did add a generator to the ev1 in a number of prototypes to extend its range. Now the big advantage of serial hybrid electric is simplicity, and gm threw that out with the design, so the diagram looks more like an EV with its range extended with a prius like parellel/serial hybrid drive train. I'm sure the complaints about this hybrid drive train would go away with many prius chatters if gm had the engine and software to the level the prius does. Well other than those that hate gm. The biggest difference between the prius phv and for c-max energi would be the ev portion. GM put a large enough battery and motor to run as a pure ev for a number of miles while ford and Toyota have smaller batteries and less powerful motors.

 

FYI, the article is incorrect when it states that the CS mode in the Volt gets no battery assist. The battery regens the same as it does in a prius, and when the electric power is available the gas engine doesn't run and the battery powers the wheels. This done (and recorded by the system) in CS mode, it doesn't switch back to CD mode.

In CS mode the power source can be the ICE, the battery, or both, just like any other hybrid.

I truly believe you're going to see Volts and PHV prii comparably priced (low $30's after tax credits). Consumers will need to decide if they favor the extra room of the prius or the extra EV range of the Volt. There is no best answer for everyone, and I suspect anyone buying either is going to be happy.

Also, someone posted above that the EV mode button will help you burn less gas, but it seemed to me he meant to turn off EV mode until you wanted to use it, forcing the car to burn gas sooner rather than later. That function would not help the PHV burn less gas than a Volt in the first 35 miles.