Audi unveils production version of A8 Hybrid

if 3.0 TDI is 6.6 l/100 km then consumption listed is for European test cycle. Prius has 3.9 l/100 km (60 mpg) on that cycle, so I expect A8 to have no more than 30 MPG in EPA test

 

What made me laugh was this "the ultra-green A8 is powered by the..."

Ultra green? ha ha ha ha ha. They mean mildly greener than the existing models but ultra green it is not!

 

Why hybrid a luxury car? Because it is simpler, and means less engineering vs cost issues.
In fact, a compact hybrid for the masses is much more greener, 'cause of market share and total CO2 avoided...Prius!

 

it is so hard to say because EU cycle is so different... i would say 25-28mpg max. After-all 2.0 TDI gets 34 MPG.

 

You can't use a diesel for comparison, especially an EGR one.

 

I guess with the LS600H, ActiveHybrid7, S400, audi was bound to join the flagship hybrid party.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/euro-only-audi-a8-hybrid-for-2012-revealed-four-cylinder-and-electric-motor-combine-for-245-hp/
but probably not for the US.

They probably mean ultra green compared to a, hmmm. Don't know. Should be greener than that bloated lexus ls. I do like the idea of this drive train in an A4. That would probably get really good mileage along with better performance.

I think the lex flagship hybrid sold about 5 cars last month and mercedes and bmw around 20 each. Defintely a me too, not a profit center hybrid market in this rarified air.

 

The hs250 was a great disapointment. I could see a Lexus ES based off the 2012 hybrid camry being much more aligned with the market. The CT seemed to correct many of the mistakes of the hs. The LS, which is closest to the A8 seems like it needs an expensive redesign if it is going to compete with the Mercedes S400 and bmw activehybrid. I doubt the market is big for all 4 automakers to do anything but have 3 lose money.

For me, I would love a bmw3/audi A4/lexus IS sized car, with a turbo 4 and motor like this audi. But it would be a lighter car, and I would like a bigger battery and motor. Why not give it a 80 kw motor, and a battery, maybe plug in, to drive the motor enough to pull like a 300hp. Do it right and it should be able to hyper mile in the high 30s on gas.

 

The Lexus LS600h is more powerful than the others, and give better FE in the urban cycle (20MPG) than BMW (17), while Mercedes gives 23MPG but 150hp power less...
It seems to me, given the age of the Lexus design, that both Mercedes and BMW were too late, and less engineered.

 

Sounds a lot like Hyundai's system.

Their plug in A3 concept piqued my interest. It's a mostly serial hybrid like the Volt, with 30 mile EV range. The ICE is a rear mounted rotorary. I know they tend to have worse fuel economy, but with a better power to weight ratio it could mean it's less of a weight burden in EV mode.

 

I would think of even worse MPG in CS mode for that plug-in. A small rotor is less eficient than the 1.4 Otto GM uses in Volt.

 

Yes being too late to market must be why they are selling better than the lexus. Oh wait, the lexus is the one not selling. It is very expensive and according to reviews handles worse than the regular lexus. The porsche panamera is the car gaining the most market share in the catagory. Its a 6 cylinder with the same fuel economy as the lexus, more fun to drive but less luxurious and much less expensive. Yes Lexus is more powerfull than the mercedes and porsche, but the bmw matches that with better handling. Certainly mercedes and bmw partnership spent less on their hybrid system but seemed to hit the mark better for these flagship cars.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q4/2011_bmw_activehybrid_750li-short_take_road_test

The infiniti M35 hybrid is a class below these, but seems to have the same idea, flywheel electric+clutches instead of torque converter and a lithium battery. It gets 27/32/29 versus the lex 22/20/21 and probably puts out as much power as the original ls400. The A8 could break 30mpg combined, with this less powerfull hybrid drivertrain, but I still don't think they will sell more than 40 a month. The question really is will they take other sales, or just convert a8 sales to hybrids.

 

It is all about handling...Sadly Lexus should listen to what the market desires...And disregard reliability, luxury and emissions (those are vain words some almost everybody?)...

Oh wait...Is handling a good measure of engineering? Funny enough, in my technical studies, and later in my job, I handled a lot of problems, that must make me a good engineer! LOL

 

all those cars are selling like crap, not sure what your point is..

 

It comes down to power output v. engine size. In the current Camary, there is an available high out 2.5L I4 with 179hp and 171 lb-ft torque. The Mazda RX-8 gets 212hp and 159 lb-ft out of a 1.3L rotorary. It does get worse fuel economy, but it is also sports car, and likely has more aggressive gearing. Using the fuel economy numbers for traditionally driven cars may not be accurate to use to gauge the fuel economy in plug in series hybrid. We really need fuel rates per time for the engines.

The primary question is what is more important for electricity generation, torque or horsepower? If power, the rotorary appears to have no trouble pumping that out in relation to its size. The Volt ICE is rated 80hp and drives a 74hp generator. So when down sized and/or detuned for the Volt's needs, would the rotorary get better CS fuel economy?

There is other factors to consider. There is also packaging. "What about trunk space," is one of the big questions when comes to hybrid versions of traditional cars. A piston ICE might better CS economy that a rotorary in this Audi concept, but would take up most of the rear hatch.

I don't hold out much hope it coming to market, but knowing the results would be interesting.

 

That's what makes Prius so special. A very efficient split-hybrid, capable of being upgraded to a plug-in non-OEM. And naturally an OEM version on the way to make the automotive industry forward.

 

I agree its special, but that doesn't address the suitability of a rotorary engine for a hybrid drive train. I've considered them for a 'ER-EV' type PHV because the potential for space and weight savings from a rotorary is a bigger factor for those type of vehicles. It might be of benefit to a gas swilling hybrid.

With the apparent larger gap between power and torque in the rotorary, pairing it up with a M/G might yield better results. We don't know, and we don't because the major players in hybrids have zero investment in the rotorary ICE. Mazda is only company with a real stake in them.

Since they are licensing Toyota hybrid tech now, maybe they'll play around with a rotorary hybrid. The piston ICE has seen many improvements recently, but we shouldn't close doors on other ICE types or even ECEs like the sterling. Combustion engines will still be common with the rise of EVs for awhile.

 

Thanks to the Volt uncool MPG in charge sustain mode, my thoughts over the inefficiency of a ER-EV tell me it will not be the future.
Can Mazda build a rotary engine with the Atkinson cycle silumation and make it to the pace? Hope...

 

Wankel rotoraries that Mazda uses aren't circular. The rotation is ovoid, so I guess an Atkinsonish cycle could be produced. You want it efficient for a hybrid, but it's strength is in producing power relative to its size. The 1.3L in the RX-8 can produce more power than engines with twice its displacement. The RX has the fuel economy to match those larger engined cars. It is focused on performance.

Now, a Volt or Prius type hybrid doesn't need all that power. This is very simplistic, but the 1.3L is a 2-rotor engine. Remove one rotor and it still produces more power than the 1.8L in the gen3 at one third the displacement.

I think there's potential there,but we'll likely see microturbines first.