Plug-in Prius tax credit

Rav4EV will be made in very small numbers and sold (leased ?) only in CA.

 

Remove the trillion dollar subsidy that goes to oil - and PHEVS & EVs will sell without any need for tax credits.

 

Hush now. Wouldn't that make gas very expensive and certain manufacturers very uncompetitive?

 

Word doesn't just get out on its own. Happy consumers rarely say anything. They just drive off happily into the sunset. Don't you think that credit may help compel them to share their experiences, provide them with a reason to give back something in return?
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If it's a good product, it'll sell on its own merits.

If not, the subsidy won't make any difference.

Why isn't an electric scooter subsidized? It saves a significant amount of gasoline compared to the PiP.

Why isn't my Honda Fit subsidized? It saves a significant amount of gasoline compared to a full size SUV.

Why isn't a full size SUV subsidized? It saves a significant amount of gasoline compared to a 40 foot long motorhome.

And on, and on, and on.

We're broke.

The "$600,000,000 isn't a lot of money" thinking is exactly what got us here in the first place.

I can do the math just fine. We're BROKE. Now. Today. There's no more future unless we do something about curbing our expenditures now.

I don't see how the subsidy compels anyone to do anything except spend money.

And I disagree, information on products and services gets around fast with social networking and other online sources. It's not the government's responsibility to compel word of mouth advertising.

Should the government and Toyota collaborate on Facebook? Have a link to "build a Toyota"on a dot gov website? Maybe have a picture of the car next to President Obama when he's giving his next speech? If we're in the business of selling cars, we ought to go all out.

But we're not, and we shouldn't.

Now you're talking. Except for the fact that everything would come crashing down and we'd all be riding donkeys, it's a great idea. I'd much rather see this happen slowly, than picking and choosing individual products to promote with tax credits.

 

Ha ha ha. That's a good one.

It's just a cheaper car (since Toyota learned from the success of the LEAF launch and failure of the Volt launch).

 

Wrong. It'll sell if individuals think it's good for them, but what's good for the individual isn't necessarily what's good for the nation.

Every mile in an efficient conventional gasoline ICEV costs the USA 8 cents in imported gasoline.

Remember that.

Because the individual cost-benefit already favors the scooter.

Because the individual cost-benefit already favors the Fit.

Because the individual cost-benefit already favors the SUV.

And on, and on, and on, I'll tell you because the cost-benefit already favors the individual.

Subsidizing new, better, technologies is a way to move money to that technology, away from the inferior technology, in this case petroleum. More money to EVs means more money in battery research and manufacturing.

No, the USA is NOT broke. The USA is just incredibly wasteful with its wealth, especially with its petroleum. The USA imported 9.247 million barrels of petroleum per day in June. US government interest payments for FY 2011 will be $434. 9.247M * $115 * 365.25 ~= $388B. Just better vehicles choices when purchasing those 900,000 vehicles per month and driving sensibly could eliminate those imports.

That's what this subsidy is about. It's an investment in future efficiency helping people make more efficient choices and the subsidy is very likely to be repaid in full and more through reduced imports.

People spend money anyway. People buy imports anyway. Since it's not possible to stop them spending it, the USA being a democracy, the idea is simply to tip the balance to help people make a choice that's better for the country in the long term.

Despite the government not telling people to go and buy cars it seems that lots of them do it anyway. Over 900,000 cars and light trucks last month, many of them horribly inefficient.

It's picking EV over petroleum. For a limited time, for a limited amount of money, trying to help turn EV from better for the nation to better for the individual.

 

I agree with ItNotAboutTheMoney regarding the merit of the Plug in Tax Credit. This is not a government mandate. This is using the free market for a legitimate public purpose.

But Pinto Girl has a valid point that a worthy product will find its own market which is why such tax credits need to be temporary.

Subsidies to oil companies which are reporting profits so high that none so high have never ever happened before make a lot less sense especially when these subsidies together with tax incentives apparently amount to many Billions of dollars per year.

 

There's always a few who absolutely cannot resist the urge to show off their great buy.
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ItsNotAboutTheMoney did a great job in explaining the subject line by line. C4C (Cash for Clunkers) in US, China, Europe,etc..."did not compel anyone to do anything except to spend money"? So, people spent money but did not get a shiny new car they wanted? how bizarre is that?

I think it's really time to stop being delusional about plug-in tax credits. In the past couple of days, I have read more delusions in here than on the religious threads. The fact is, there is hardly anything that is not subsidized; healthcare, jobs, foods, ethanol, oil, dare I say tobacco?... (uhm, used to be anyway!).

 

Fine. Ration petrol imports. You personally should *never* buy any petrol, because you are broke.

I would not have left the arithmetic for you if I did not think you able. You are however having trouble distinguishing expenditure from investment. The economic argument you are blind to is that the rebate is an investment meant to decrease petroleum imports. I consider the argument flawed, but not for the tea-bagger reasons you have offered.

 

SUV's did have tax credits. The idea was to stimulate sales of work trucks. Make the SUV heavy enough & it qualified. Even Toyota played the game by making the Rav-4 heavier so it qualified. Buy a Hummer for your business & get a credit. That's a no-brainer.

Oil subsidies & credits have been in place for some 90 years. In the 1910's-1920's they made sense to start a new industry but then that tiny new industry became big enough to take care of itself--by ensuring the tax structure was favorable.

How many politicians just about apologized to BP because our water got mixed in with their oil?

If all you can afford is a donkey then get on your nice person & ride. You're still better off than millions of people in this world who can't afford one.

 

That's the point behind the tax credits. So things happen slowly without making an abrupt change that would affect 10's of millions of people. Think about it this way, that $600,000,000 is an investment towards getting rid of $1 (plus) Trillion of your tax dollars going to the oil companies.

 

That can pretty much be said on all "investments" from government with printed money, in tens of trillions by the way, including "investment" on:
Education. By definition, it should be "investment", right?
Health care. Oh, without this "investment", how can we be a strong nation?
Bank Bailout. Without this "investment", our financial system will be destroyed, and all the other "investments" our government made for us with great intention will be toasted. Agree?
However, to Prius lovers like us, how about the "investment" to bailout GM?

Would you give me a couple of dollars when I buy that car which you think worth government "investment"? No? But that's what it is. When government "invest" like this, they are taking money from your paycheck (higher tax), or from your pocket (inflation).

 

Are you saying to let government invest it, for GM or other US auto companies?
Or let Toyota to spend their own money to invest it, as they already do?

 

The credit doesn't apply if the packs capacity is less than 5 kwh. Info from the production model in Frankfurt says its only 4.4 kwh or so.

Guess the discussion on the tax credit for the PHV is moot.

 

There is conflicting information for the minimum pack capacity. Fueleconomy.gov said:

It must be propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor which draws electricity from a battery which

• has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours and
• is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.

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Quite the opposite. Virtually all the promotion of Volt has been heavily dependent upon that taxpayer funding. Selling them without would be one heck of a challenge and it wrecks most of the comparison arguments.

Toyota shooting right past that dependency shows serious committment... and good reason to strive for high-volume quickly. Remember, next year's production is intended to be 50,000.
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wrong...

State & Federal Incentives | Plug In America

"For Cars

$2,500 to $7,500 tax credit, depending on size of battery (4 kWh to 16 kWh), for electric-drive vehicles (EVs and PHEVs) sold after December 31, 2008. This is the best and biggest new incentive brought on by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (stimulus bill), and applies to at least 200,000 units per auto manufacturer before it phases out."

 

No, you still get the $2,500 base amount. Here is the statutory language:

§ 30D New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles.

(a) Allowance of credit. There shall be allowed as a credit against the tax imposed by this chapter for the taxable year an amount equal to the sum of the credit amounts determined under subsection (b) with respect to each new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year.
(b) Per vehicle dollar limitation.
(1) In general.
The amount determined under this subsection with respect to any new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle is the sum of the amounts determined under paragraphs (2) and (3) with respect to such vehicle.
(2) Base amount.
The amount determined under this paragraph is $2,500.
(3) Battery capacity.
In the case of a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with not less than 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, the amount determined under this paragraph is $417, plus $417 for each kilowatt hour of capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The amount determined under this paragraph shall not exceed $5,000.