Ford annouces it will build Hybrid, Plug-In Hybrid, and Electric versions of Ford Focus

What's the need, market, for an electric only vehicle if you already have an "equivalent" plug-in hybrid....?

I don't see it.

 

"..very fine hybrid on the road now..."

Yes, but only via licensing the Toyota PSD technique.."

"...Ford....good management..."

NOT..!!

Marketing a detuned/derated DFI turbo engine as "eco" conscious is much more an example of IDIOCY than otherwise. Engineering design decisions made by beancounters and/or marketing types. They should have left it labeled as "TwinForce" and accepted the market restriction to those with the "boy-racer" mentality.

Show some "good" management by bringing us, John Q Public, a multimode Otto/Atkinson DFI I4 engine via licensing the Toyota E-VVT-i technique used in the RX450h. 15:1 base/native compression ratio, 12:1 in Atkinson, "power", mode.

Or even better, an Otto/Atkinson/Miller cycle DFI I4, "smaller" I4, multi-mode engine. Otto CR, 15:1, Atkinson CR, 12:1, Miller cycle CR, pre-boost CR, <10:1.

 

When is Toyota going to bring this to the public? The 2012 RX450h still has the Atkinsonized V6 with 12.5:1 compression.

 

With low cylinder fills the RX450h's V6 runs in Otto mode and only switches to Atkinson for "power" demands.

Besides which, like the EcoBoost, the RX450h is more attuned to those of the "boy-racer" metality, just maybe a bit deeper pockets.

Hard to know why Lexus/(Toyota) hasn't switched the RX450h to DFI.....obviously significant FE gains to be gained thereby.

I think the Venza, and its new I4 engine, would be good target for hybridizing using all of the above methods.

RX250h...anyone...?

 

This myth never goes away.

C-Max Energi: No, Ford doesn't use Toyota's Hybrid Drive System

 

Until Ford releases documents dating their hybrid design system concept prior to the cross-licensing deal I will continue to believe in the "myth".

Look at how, over the years, Ford's overall hyrid design improvments have "followed" those of Toyota's, electric A/C, brake pad positional feedback, etc, etc.

 

The various variable valve systems out there are all about allowing the engine to produce power while staying efficient when the power isn't needed. Even in the ecoboost engines.

If the valve control in the RX450h actually does allow switching between Otto and Atkinson cycles, and Toyota hasn't released any documents saying so, then it would require premium fuel. With that compression ratio, Otto mode would not be possible with regular. DI can help, but not at 15:1.

 

It ain't easy making up a huge deficit. I'd love to see Ford pull off a 50mpg hybrid ... heck even better, a 60mpg HEV ... as well as a decently priced EV with a good 150 mile range. That'll push all the competition!

.

 

(ekkk ... double post. I'll have to add something below to make it worthwhile - on this otherwise zombie thread from last year ... sheesh ... the PC server is running slow today)

Doesn't matter. No money exchanged means "Cross Licensing" ie, Ford had a 'Better Idea' and Toyota had it too ... similar as they were. So ... if you want to cry about WHO actually owns what patents - then you ought to read on below ... because it's actually Dr Alex Severinsky who has both Toyota and Ford by the short & curlies:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/19/toyota-prius-paice-severinsky-business-autos-hybrid.html
.

 

The base/native CR could even be 20:1, using regular, provided when the cylinder fill rises high enough to result in detonation the switch is made to Atkinson cycle, lowering the effective CR.

The maximum compression ratio is meanless insofar as detonation is concerned unless/until the cylinder fill volume is high enough.

 

Yes, with Atkinsonized valve control.

Saying the engine can go Otto implies that the intake valve closes at the beginning of the compression stroke, and the fuel charge is compressed at the native compression of the engine. Without high octane fuel (regular fuel in nations that field high CR DI engines is premium here) there will be predetonation or the timing will be dialed back undermining the point of high compression. If the engine isn't switching between full Atkinson and full Otto, then what Toyota is using isn't any more revolutionary than what the other makes have in advance valve control.

 

Absolutely correct. An example of an engine that fully switches between otto and simulated atkinson cycles and others in the mazda skyactiv. This uses DI and electronic valve control and can be made to 14:1 with premium and 13:1 for regular gas. The 14:1 version will burn regular gas but not in full otto mode. Toyota's system is not as sophisticated, and ford already has said they will be using skyactiv technology, so I don't know why they would need toyota for this. This tech won't be in this generation of hybrids.

Ford and Toyota are developing a truck hybrid system together, but it is likely if engine tech is shared it will be ford's engine tech.

 

But the engine IS switchig from FULL Otto to FULL(***) Atkinson. There is no cause for being in Atkinson mode, lower the effective compression ratio, unless the cylinders are being fully filled, WOT, with A/F mixture.

You seem to be saying, extrapilatiing, that with the throttle open only to idle a high compression engine still REQUIRES preminum fuel. That is simply NOT the case.

Absent a full volume mixture fill of the cylinders detonation is simply not an issue.

*** I don't know that anyone has defined FULL Atkinson. I do think current implementations involve ~30% rejection from full cylinder fills.

 

Modern day technology engines use EFI fuel enrichment to alleviate detonation/knock/ping that precedes spark ignition.

 

Or dial back spark timing. Either way, in an Otto engine designed for premium fuel, adjusting for lower octane reduces efficiency.

Whenever ecoboost comes up, you state Ford should be using the valve control from the RX450h which can switch between Atkinson and Otto cycles. My counter is that, if that was so, then in a non direct injection engine with12.5:1 base compression like the RX, it needs to burn premium fuel to take full advantage of the Otto cycle. This would defeat Ford's intent of sticking to regular octane, because premium is only acceptable in luxury or performance cars in this country.

That's in addition to the fact that the only production car with eVVT-i, VVT-iE, or whatever the acronym is the larger Lexus sedan, and the there is no documentation on a system that can go from Otto to Atkinson. Such a system would be exceptional, which leads me to believe it doesn't, and is no more ground breaking than a variable valve system used by any other manufacturer.

 

The answer to if the atkinson RX450h engine can go full otto is easy, if it went fully into otto mode the hp between this and the otto engine would be the same. It isn't. That does not mean that the toyota system can not be made to do this transition, but they do not now.

 

The Toyota hybrid system's simulation of the Atkinson cycle engine uses delayed intake valve closing to reduce the base/native compression ratio, ~12-13:1, to an effective ratio of ~10:1. It does this by reducing the cylinder fill level from FULL, to a lower level, ~70%, by exhausting a portion of the cylinder fill level back into the intake manifold as the compression cycle begins.

Regretably it does so throughout the entire engine operating envelope when it is really only required at or near WOT.

For virtually eons now the Otto engines have accomplished this very same task by simply keeping the throttle plate partially closed. No FULL cylinder fill, no concerns regarding high compression detonation.

 

Simple, hp, PEAK HP, is only available at WOT, which is when the engine has been, is being, switched to the Atkinson cycle. But maintaining a relatively high CR in Otto mode does likely improve engine efficiency during cruise mode compared to a hybrid engine that always runs in Atkinson mode.

 

I think you are starting to understand some limitations of the toyota engine technology. Mazda is able with piston design and di achieve a 13:1 compression ratio with regular gas, then with electronic individual intake valve control make the valves follow more of a atkinson or otto cycle.

Toyota's tech reduces throttling losses and allows the engine to remain efficient at different rpm and load levels. The atkinson engine is designed for Atkinson cycle and not otto. There is an egr system that also reduces pumping losses. If ford wants to do what you want them to do they need to use some of their own DI and skyactiv electronic valve control and piston design. They could also add toyota's EGR system and Exhaust heat recovery system, but each piece of tech adds cost and efficiency doesn't gain as much. Take the premium fuel skyactiv with 14:1 compression ratio and you get pretty much the toyota system you are describing, it will do late valve timeing when ever it is appropriate, and otto mode when power is called for unless there might be detonation.