1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Quackcast

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by daniel, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    3,093
    350
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I guess I just don't share daniel's blind faith in science.
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    It's not blind faith. Blind faith is when you believe stuff without evidence, or against the evidence. Believing in a six-thousand-year-old Earth, against the geological evidence, is blind faith. Accepting the results of science is not blind, because it is based on evidence and repeatable experiment. And it's not even faith, if you take Mark Twain's definition: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." (Spoken by Huck Finn, in the book of the same name.)
     
  3. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    Sorry, but the "evidence-based" quack-fraud known as medical care is the number one killer of Americans. EACH YEAR 700,000 -1 MILLION Americans die from preventable errors beating out heart attacks, cancer and strokes. Want evidence? Read "Death by Medicine" by MD's and PhD's. Here it is with all references and citations:

    Death by Medicine - 2 - Life ExtensionDeath by Medicine

    This has recently been made into an award-winning documentary.

    It seems that deaths are OK as long as they are by 'official medical care'.
    In any given year you would have a hard time finding one death by non-medical/drug approaches.

    I do, however, believe that emergency medicine, organ transplants, micro-surgery and some others are truly the 'art of medicine and I take my hats off to the people who do this. It is the other 95% that we should be cautious and skeptical about. Hold onto your wallet and run the other way. Vitamins - no way, but they never met a drug they didn't like!
     
  4. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    So maybe you'd prefer to have lived in the 1900's and earlier, when most people died in their 20's of diseases that are nearly nonexistent in the industrial world today.
     
  5. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    4,539
    1,433
    9
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    +1 My mother nearly died of strep throat in the early 1920s. A lot of things that were serious diseases then are either gone on easily treated now.

    Polio was a common crippling or fatal disease when I was in early elementary school.

    And on and on....
     
  6. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    OK, save a million, kill a million. So where do we net out?

    I did give credit to the medical people where credit is due. But safety was brought up. I was just sayin' that if you are concerned about safety, please start with the number one hazard to our health, according to the scientific journals, namely the 'practice' of medicine.
     
  7. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    More like save a million, kill ten. And don't forget all the people who die because quacks convinced them not to get conventional medical help. Or the tens of thousands of children who die because the murdering anti-vaccine quacks have convinced their parents that vaccines cause autism. (Another piece of bullshit from the CAM crowd.)

    Everybody dies. Nowadays, most people go to a doctor when they are terminally ill. Thus, most people die while under the care of a doctor. Some of those would not be terminally ill if a quack had not convinced them to use CAM when their first symptoms appeared.

    Just look at the mortality rates among infants and young people when "traditional" medicine was all there was! Or in third-world countries where the poor have nothing but "traditional" medicine. Life expectancy, quality of life, and health, all skyrocket when evidence-based medicine is available. The only fly in the ointment is that a lot of people refuse to take proper care of their bodies. They refuse to exercise, and they eat mountains of junk food. And before you claim exercise and diet as CAM, my doctor tells me to eat a healthy, balanced diet and exercise regularly.

    Some doctors are incompetent, but your numbers are nonsense.
     
  8. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    Oh boy. Someone drank the Kool-Aid. Those are not my numbers, those are the numbers of the Federal government, hospitals, scientific journals, medical journals, etc. These are not desperately ill people. These people died from, according to the government/scientific journals, from PREVENTABLE MEDICAL ERRORS.

    Daniel, other than your rantings and short-circuits popping all over the place, you provide absolutely no proof except your emotions, which don't exactly qualify as proof.

    I cited a study that provides all the references one could ask for. Obviously you didn't even look at the link. But if you feel that acupuncture or a foot massage is a menace to humanity, well I certainly respect your views. I respect all views -- even misguided ones.

    Can you cite your references that show that "people who die because quacks convinced them not to get conventional medical help. Or the tens of thousands of children who die because the murdering anti-vaccine quacks have convinced their parents that vaccines cause autism. " I doubt it.

    The U.S. ranks 34th in the world in infant mortality behind countries that don't have 'modern medicine' as their primary form of care. If we have the best, why are we 34th behind countries like Cuba, Croatia, Cyprus, Macau, Slovenia, Singapore and all of Europe?

    Here is the link again. Read it and learn:

    Death by Medicine - 2 - Life ExtensionDeath by Medicine
     
  9. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    4,539
    1,433
    9
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    A good share of the US population lacks adequate preventative medical care as is shown by our position 34 in infant mortality.

    OTOH, the US compares very favorably with other countries for the 65 and older group. The difference being that virtually everyone over 65 has decent preventative, during and post medical care available.

    If the true cause of our infant mortality problem was the poor quality US medical care, the 65 and over group would place even lower because nearly everyone over 65 in the US has an adequate amount US medical care medical care.

    What the numbers show is that our biggest problem is a lack of adequate medical care for large numbers of young and middle aged people, not the quality of the care.

    I'm not going to try and tell you that quality isn't a problem, because it is. What is the case is that readily available 3rd world medical care is far better than no medical care or very irregularly available 1st world medical care.
     
  10. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Yes, and that would be you.

    Tom
     
  11. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    4,539
    1,433
    9
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    This quote of a quote was shamelessly copied from someone's BLOG

     
  12. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    The United States has one of the world's best medical care systems for those who can afford to pay. The problem is an economic structure that excludes so many people.

    Advocates of CAM just love to bring up aspirin. Aspirin was derived from a natural source. Many of our drugs were derived from plants. The point is that when such remedies work they are adopted by legitimate doctors. Let me repeat that: When natural sources yield effective remedies, they become part of mainstream medicine! This leaves the quacks using "remedies" that do not work.

    Also note that aspirin is controlled and regulated. When you buy a bottle of aspirin you know the exact dosage of every tablet in the bottle. When you buy a herbal remedy from a "health food" store, the only way to know the dosage is to take it to a lab to be tested, and even then, likely as not, every tablet in the bottle will have a different dosage, simply because there is no regulation. Even worse, when it's in leaf form dosage will vary from zero to high, depending on the growing conditions, age of the sample, storage conditions, processing, etc.
     
    2 people like this.
  13. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    2,191
    538
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Quackery (alternative medicine) can be distinguished from conventional medical practice by three criteria:

    First, certainty of claim. If the claim is absolute and positive, and, in particular, across a diverse array of unrelated maladies, it's quackery. Only quacks consistently promise total cure; only quacks focus their discussion on the therapeutic benefits and downplay or entirely omit mention of adverse effects. A physician presenting a therapeutic remedy addresses all aspects, beneficial and detrimental; the presentation will not resemble the Home Shopping Network. Finally, the physician will also include probabilities of success, and discuss contra-indications that would rule out being able to use a particular therapy.

    Second, knowledge of mechanism of action. A physician can describe exactly how a therapy achieves its effect; a quack cannot. A quack describes mechanism of action, if at all, only in generalities that are vague and mostly meaningless. A quack will cite only anecdotal incidents, that it "changed Mary Higginbottom's life"; a physician will draw a diagram showing what actually happens anatomically and why.

    Third, depth of research. Conventional medicine and its practitioners emerge from years of study, years marked by more failure than success as a particular end-point is sought. Quack therapies have no such background; what research exists is marketing research, not medical research. Quack therapy background is mostly or exclusively anecdotal; what underlies conventional medicine is substantive, lengthy, scientifically evaluated experience.

    The third criterion is the most significant. In any field, the deeper the depth of research, the better it is understood. Given the choice between a course of action well understood, and one based mostly on hope, which is more likely to succeed?

    Conventional medicine is the first to tell you it doesn't understand everything, and doesn't have a cure, but it's its vast depth of understanding that gives it the knowledge of what it doesn't yet know. The only thing a quack understands or has any interest in is getting paid.
     
    2 people like this.
  14. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    I only pointed out an important, well-researched study complete with references from the government, science and medicine that points to the dangers of so-called "modern medicine". It clearly shows that the medical industry kills 700,000 - 1 million Americans EACH YEAR, making it the number one killer of Americans, ahead of heart attacks, cancer and strokes.

    Death by Medicine - 2 - Life ExtensionDeath by Medicine

    Daniel has made a lot of radical, extremist statements but has not provided any references to support his position. Unless he provides something other than emotional short-circuits, the only conclusion is that he is attempting to pass off his opinion as facts. IOW he is deliberately misleading us.

    BTW RobH mentioned Dr. Saputo. You can hear him on the 11/21/2011 program:

    Progressive Commentary Hour - Progressive Radio Network

    This program also has lots of great information covering health, nutrition, environment, social and political issues. Just have a look at the other days on the page.
     
  15. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    Thanks. You summed up psychiatry quite nicely! :rockon:

     
  16. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    2,369
    978
    70
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    The World Health Organization regularly rates the US as having absolutely terrible medical care. We're outflanked by every other developed country, including Cuba (!). The difference between Cuba and the US is that they work toward health, and the US uses medical problems to drive commerce.

    In a system where profit trumps effectiveness, an intelligent person carefully evaluates every treatment offered. A common cardiologist ploy is to point to a narrowing on an angiogram and say "See this? It's called a WIDOW MAKER". The narrowing does identify poor health of the artery, but the majority of the actual vascular events take place at places that don't image like narrowing. Several inches away from the narrowing, there are usually fragile plaques (pimples) that can totally shut down circulation if they burst. The most urgent medical treatment is to dry up those plaques, not to mechanically push the old, stable plaques out of the way.

    So how do you dry up (or, better yet, prevent) fragile plaques? Diet is the primary difference between people with plaques and those without. Modern healing diets that have been documented to reverse heart disease include Ornish, Esselstyn, and Pritikin. "The Engine 2 Diet" by Rip Esselstyn is an excellent example of a science based healing diet. Vitamin C is critical for vascular health, with L-Ascorbate being the best form. Kiwi is an excellent source of vitamin C. There is a new supplement called Neo40 that increases nitric oxide production in older people. While the vendors are legally prohibited from fully explaining what they know about its health benefits, it's got to be major. Nitrogenous foods and/or supplements are absolutely necessary for endothelial health. If you've already been diagnosed as having circulatory problems, it would be foolish to wait the 5-10 years it's going to take for similar drugs to make it through the FDA legal maze.
     
  17. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Most of the above post is nonsense. The one part that is correct is twisted: The reason the U.S. is rated so poorly is that so many Americans don't get medical care because they lack insurance. We are the only industrial nation in the world that does not have a national health plan. Americans who can afford medical care have one of the world's best. The difference between the U.S. and Cuba is that in Cuba everyone gets free medical care.

    And that stuff about dissolving arterial plaque is pure quackery!
     
    2 people like this.
  18. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    Really? Can you show us the reference to verify your claim, please?

    So according to you, Daniel, the 700,000 - ONE MILLION Americans killed by the medical industry EACH YEAR from preventable errors (according to the Federal government, scientific and medical journals) would still be alive if they had insurance?
     
  19. Prius313

    Prius313 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    219
    2
    0
    In an earlier post, someone mentioned vaccines. So I am listening to this internet radio website that covers many aspects of health, science, the environment, social issues, etc. and they start talking about vaccines.

    It seems that no one, not even the medical doctors who administer them, know exactly what is in a vaccine, the ingredients, preservatives, viruses, any contamination with viruses, bacteria, DNA from the animal source it is cultured on, etc.

    I have never heard this before and now I am very concerned. I recommend to the people here that they listen to this program, as it will certainly be an eye-opener and give one pause:

    http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com/the-gary-null-show-wnye

    It is the 12-01-11 program. The whole hour is interesting, but the vaccine part starts with about 17 minutes left in the program.
     
  20. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    This is rubbish. You shouldn't believe everything you read and hear, especially from the Internet.

    Pharmaceutical companies know exactly what is in each drug. They spend great amounts of time, effort, and money documenting the exact composition and structure of every drug. They need to do this to protect their intellectual property rights, and since pharmaceutical companies are in business to make money, they take this part of the business very seriously.

    Obviously this isn't true for counterfeit drug producers. They are villains in all respects, whether counterfeiting legitimate pharmaceuticals or herbal products.

    Many of the posts in this thread sound like they came from tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists. I'm not sure why, but people in this frame of mind seem willing to accept far greater risks from "natural" methods than the known risks from conventional medicine. There is no logic, just an overdeveloped fear of the establishment.

    Nothing is risk free. Living is the leading cause of death. We try to minimize the risks and maximize the return. Modern medicine can be improved, but abandoning modern medicine because some people die is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Tom
     
    2 people like this.