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Engine Block Heater Data Collection Experiment

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by walter Lee, Nov 23, 2011.

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  1. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Not to come to the party late, but another key data point, IMO, would be a comparison of how long it takes to get the ICE temp up to 157 F--the point where it's possible to go into Stage 4. Also, you'll need to make note, somewhere, of your climate control settings. When the temp is set at anything above "Max Cold" the ICE will run much more--this will impact the ICE temp and FE.
     
    #21 efusco, Dec 1, 2011
  2. macman408

    macman408 Electron Guidance Counselor

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    While that's more or less true (assuming that the incremental increase in power usage isn't matched by an incremental increase in wind speed somewhere... ;)), it's also the case that although the immediate need might be met by gas/oil/coal/nuclear/etc., over the long term, it will cause additional wind capacity to be built. And thus, somebody *else's* non-incremental usage will be powered by wind instead, making up for his incremental usage possibly coming from something non-renewable. One way or another, for every extra kilowatt-hour that he consumes, it means the power company has to buy an extra kilowatt-hour of renewable energy - so even though *his* kWh might come from a non-renewable source at that very moment, it still forces them to buy a kWh of wind power, and the total non-renewable power they buy remains at the same level.
     
    #22 macman408, Dec 2, 2011
  3. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    a new proposed version of my EBH experimental data record
    which incorporated ideas previously posted ... BTW - I've just
    got the EBH & anemometer & thermometer. ( I already have
    a killowatt meter and the scangaugeII albeit a 2nd scangaugeII
    might make data logging easier) After I have to get the
    EBH installed - I'll be ready to start the data logging experiment...

    =========================================
    ENGINE BLOCK HEATER EXPERIMENTAL DATA RECORD
    Each record has 34 data fields.
    =========================================
    ebh - data record formats
    ==========================
    ==================================
    experimental (Record Type=1)
    ==================================
    00. Record number - Primary Key
    01. Record type =1 ( experimental)
    02. date (MM/DD/YYYY)
    ---------------------------
    starting EBH warmup cycle
    ----------------------------
    03. outside temperature(F)
    04. time(hh:mm)
    05. wind (speed, direction)
    -------------------------
    ending EBH warmup cycle
    -------------------------
    06. outside temperature(F)
    07. time(hh:mm)
    08. wind (speed, direction)
    09. wattHours(wH)
    10. engine block temperature achieved(F)
    11. engine block insulation (Y/N)
    12. comment1
    13. reserve
    ------------------------
    Trip data
    ------------------------
    14. starting Odeometer(miles)
    15. starting wind (speed,direction)
    16. starting outside temperature(f)
    17. starting engine block temperature(ScangaugeII(FwT)
    18. starting cabin temperature setting (f)
    19. starting time(hh:mm)
    20. Ending Odeometer(miles)
    21. Ending outside temperature(f)
    22. Ending engine block temperature(ScangaugeII(FwT)
    23. Ending cabing temperature setting(f)
    24. Ending time(hh:mm)
    25. Precipation(Rain/Snow/Sleet/none)
    26. ScangaugeII(AVG, mpg )
    27. MFD(Trip B reset, mpg)
    28. ICE Ready Mode Temperature time ( > 140F, hh:mm)
    29. ICE Normal Mode Temperature time ( > 158F, hh:mm)
    30. defogger (y/n)
    31. heater setting ( max cold, or dd F):
    32. comments
    -------------------
    cost factors
    -------------------
    33. cost per KwH ( current charge, distr&tax charge )
    34. cost per gallon of gas

    ========================
    control (Record type =0)
    ========================
    00. Record number - Primary Key
    01. Record type = 0 (control)
    02. date (MM/DD/YYYY)
    ------------------------
    03. to 13. not used
    ------------------------
    Trip data
    ------------------------
    14. starting Odeometer(miles)
    15. starting wind (speed,direction)
    16. starting outside temperature(f)
    17. starting engine block temperature(ScangaugeII(FwT)
    18. starting cabin temperature setting (f)
    19. starting time(hh:mm)
    20. Ending Odeometer(miles)
    21. Ending outside temperature(f)
    22. Ending engine block temperature(ScangaugeII(FwT)
    23. Ending cabing temperature setting(f)
    24. Ending time(hh:mm)
    25. Precipation(Rain/Snow/Sleet/none)
    26. ScangaugeII(AVG, mpg )
    27. MFD(Trip B reset, mpg)
    28. ICE Ready Mode Temperature time ( > 140F, hh:mm)
    29. ICE Normal Mode Temperature time ( > 158F, hh:mm)
    30. defogger (y/n)
    31. heater setting ( max cold, or dd F):
    32. comments
    -------------------
    cost factors
    -------------------
    33. cost per KwH ( current charge, distr&tax charge )
    34. cost per gallon of gas


    Gen3 Prius ICE operational temperature stage legend
    ==================================================
    Stage S0: 12 seconds, no EV mode
    Stage S1a: 50 seconds, coolant < 40C, no EV mode
    Stage S1b: coolant <(40C/104F) or (50C/122F) or < (65C/149F), no EV mode
    Stage 2: 40c < Coolant < (70C/158F), EV mode < 10 mph
    Stage 3(Normal): coolant > (70C/158F), EV mode < 25 mph, partial glide
    Stage 4: coolant > 60C (140F), EV mode < 25 mph, auto-stop on, full glide
    ==================================================


    planned experiment input variables
    ======================
    outside temperature
    outside wind
    How long the EBH is used to warm up ICE (15 min, 30 min, 45 min, 60 min)
    Use of thermal blanket over engine hood during EBH operations.
     
    #23 walter Lee, Dec 3, 2011
  4. dkelly

    dkelly Member

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    This might be a little off topic but I thought I'd post this question here rather than create a new thread. I live in eastern PA where I assume the overall energy efficiency benefits of installing an engine block heater are negligible to minor at best. However, I have an attached garage which is uninsulated. For a while now I have considered insulating the garage and heating it.

    Assuming I install an electric heater, it seems that the most advantageous electric heater would be a block heater. Heat loss from the ICE while the block heater is running would effectively heat the garage, and the ICE would be warm when ready for start.

    Are there any drawbacks to this scenario? I know my garage will never be toasty warm but it would help to some degree.
     
    #24 dkelly, Dec 4, 2011
  5. ForestBeekeeper

    ForestBeekeeper Active Member

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    The OP mentioned a 400W block heater [1366Btu]

    JCWhitney lists a block heater that is 200W [682Btu].

    Imagine two 100W lightblubs or even four of them; and how much heat they put off.

    An auto-drip coffee maker puts off 1500W [5,122Btu]

    It would take four of the 400W block heaters to equal the heat made by one coffee pot.
     
    #25 ForestBeekeeper, Dec 4, 2011
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    A typical block heater will never get you there, in fact: that's not it's design purpose. It's really only intended to give you a "leg up" in engine warm-up, typically raising the engine block temperature by about 30 degrees centigrade, regardless of the time it's plugged in.

    I had the Toyota blockheater installed on ours at purchase, and use it pretty religously, year-round. I try for 2 hours use, or at least 1 hour in a pinch. My understanding is 1 hour does about 60~70 % of possible temp. raise, and by the end of the second hour it's more-or-less stable at peak temp raise.

    That depends on ambient temperatures as well: in the dead of winter a bit more time may help. But for the most part, anything over 2 hours, you're not climbing any more , just holding the temp raise.

    Here's something I found, a guy experimenting with various times with a Pontiac FireFly:

    Experiment: how long should a block heater be plugged in? - MetroMPG.com

    Also, CleanMPG's Winter Surval Guide has some info:

    A Hybrid Owner’s winter survival guide - CleanMPG Forums
     
    #26 Mendel Leisk, Dec 4, 2011
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  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    You misunderstand me. My point is to document the time it takes after starting out in the morning to get the ICE up to 157F comparing preheated to non-preheated. IOW, if it is 32F OAT then the ICE will start at 32F. Using the EBH your starting temp will be around 120F. Thus, the amount of time it takes for the ICE to reach 157F will be somewhat shorter with the EBH prewarmed than without. My question would be exactly how much longer.

    My personal experience suggests it takes a LOT longer, particularly if you're running the climate control. I've experienced drives where the ICE took 10 miles or more to finally get above 150F or so. With the EBH it isn't nearly as bad, but I haven't seen anyone document any specific measurements to quantify the difference of efficiency which is why I suggested that specific data point.
     
    #27 efusco, Dec 4, 2011
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I was just re-reading my response and thinking "You know, maybe he means..."

    And then glanced down at your last posting: Sorry, understand now.
     
    #28 Mendel Leisk, Dec 4, 2011
  9. PaulHS

    PaulHS Member

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    You are unlikely to see any perceptible ambient temperature increase from an EBH even in an insulated garage. Besides, the efficient way to use the EBH is to connect it to a timer so it heats the engine block for only a couple hours in the morning before going off to work.

    My commute is relatively short, so every bit helps. I've found the EBH in combination with grille blocking to be very beneficial.
     
    #29 PaulHS, Dec 7, 2011
  10. PaulHS

    PaulHS Member

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    There's not much sense in running the climate control with a stone-cold engine. Even with EBH, the heater will suck the heat from the ICE until there is the worst of both elements: insufficient cabin temp, and extended time to bring the ICE to operating temp.

    With EBH, grille blocking and climate control off, my ICE reaches 157F within one mile + or - 100 yards consistently in winter. After that I may use the climate control for defogging occasionally. But that's it. No cabin heat for an 8 mile commute is bearable.

    One winter day I forgot to plug in the EBH. Ambient temp was 18F and Scanguage FwT read 13F when I first started. With no cabin heat, the ICE reached 157F in about 2 miles. So using the EBH halves the distance necessary to reach operating temperature. Using your experience of needing 10 miles or more, Evan, as a data point factor, I'd say that climate control makes a huge difference and should be off altogether at least until the engine has reached 157.
     
    #30 PaulHS, Dec 7, 2011
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    When you ask for cabin heat with an engine that is still warming up, the car will oblige you soon enough that engine warm up is going to be significantly delayed, at least that's my sense of it. OTOH, when my wife cranks up the heat when the engine is still warming, I've learned it's best to just keep quiet. ;)

    And maybe tick it down a degree or two, when she's distracted. ;)
     
    #31 Mendel Leisk, Dec 9, 2011
  12. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    That experience is somewhat similar to mine. I do things a bit differently however.

    I, too, find that with the EBH that I'll hit 157 and then try to find an opportunity to go into S4. Once the ICE hits around 165-170F I turn on some heat (not Auto!) with a low fan speed. I see an initial mild bump in ICE temp after doing that.

    Now, if I'm in stop and go traffic, the ICE temp will drop back down often below my 157 threshold and I'll turn the heat off again. If I have pulse and glide modest speed situations the temp will bounce around, but typically, baring any long glides, it will stay above that 157 mark and trickles in enough heat to keep the windows from fogging and my feet and hands from becoming ice blocks and makes for a bit more pleasant ride. I do try to remember to set the temp back to "max cold" prior to shutting down or I have to deal with that prolonged warmup you mention after starting up the next time.

    Running the climate control on auto, in any but high ice demand situations (highway driving, hill climbing, etc) in very cold climates dooms you to never getting the temp up above about 145F. It WILL, however, even with an ice cold ICE block, put out some decent heat fairly soon thanks to the PTCs and the fact that the ICE will get above your preset temperature pretty quickly--but, as you said, that comes at a huge price--that the ICE just never ever gets properly warmed up even on long long drives.

    So, as I pointed out above, I often drive for several miles without any heat, then just trickle in some heat without using the "auto" setting and find that to be the best compromise of fuel economy, environmental comfort and ICE efficiency.
     
    #32 efusco, Dec 9, 2011
  13. NinnJinn

    NinnJinn Member

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    So what did you find out????
     
    #33 NinnJinn, Feb 20, 2012
  14. skibum

    skibum Junior Member

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    I don't even touch the heat control if my wife is in the car, I have learned that a few mpg just isn't worth the argument with her :) . Just pump the tires to the max, and try to glide without aggravating her or the drivers behind you!

    BTW it is obvious some people have way to much time on their hands to be collecting this much data which I appreciate.

    Gerry
     
    #34 skibum, Feb 20, 2012
  15. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Walter,
    Just checking to see if you recorded much data last winter or if your plan is to start new this winter. Cold temps are coming before long and I'm trying to beef up my knowledge of what to do this winter.
     
    #35 markabele, Sep 8, 2012
  16. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    Mark

    I didn't install the EHB yet - started the project to late :oops: and I cancelled it when I realize the
    winter of 2011-2012 was going to be very mild and very short to collect any meaningful data. :(

    On the positive side, the Prius MPG performance was about 10 mpg higher for
    the winter 2011-2012 than for the winter of 2010-2011.:) On the downside, there just
    wasn't enough projected cold days to make the EHB experiment worth doing. :(

    I check the farmer's almanac and they project a late winter for 2012-2013 Maryland area
    with heavy snow storms later in Feburary-March of 2013 (via an El Nino' System similar
    to the 1970-1980 period that visited the Eastern Seaboard Mid-Atlantic Area).:cautious:

    I've got some home improvements to do first and then the EHB project will be on my next thingy to do.

    For the winter, I'd limit tire overinflation to +7 psi more and put on the grill blocking when the outside temperature drops below 60 Fahrenheit degrees. If you have rainx put some on the windshield. Wash and wax your car before the weather gets too nasty too. Apply scotchguard to the interior if you feel its necessary. Check the air pressure in your spare tire.
     
    #36 walter Lee, Sep 8, 2012
  17. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Any sense at all in me even thinking about an EBH when I'm able to park in a garage that is connected to my home? Live in Nebraska fwiw.
     
    #37 markabele, Sep 8, 2012
  18. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    Mark, you would end up using an EHB more than me since
    Nebraska has almost 50 more days that drop to 32 degrees Fahrenheit or below than Maryland
    (144 days for Lincoln NE vs 97 days for Baltimore MD).[1] The Farmer's Almanac and AccuWeather are both forecasting that the winter of 2012-2013 will be colder in the eastern section of Nebraska than in the western section of Nebraska. In general for the state of Nebraska, the winter of 2012-2013 is forecasted to be colder than last winter of 2011-2012.

    However, how much you would benefit would depend on if your garage is heated or unheated.

    If your garage is heated to atleast 50 degrees Fahrenheit during the winter time
    THEN my guess is a 10 MPG improvement if you heat up the coolant to 80 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit
    (20 minutes to 60 minute warmup via 400 Watt EHB).

    If your garage is unheated and drops below 32 degrees Fahrenheit during the winter time
    THEN my guess is a 20 MPG improvement if you heat up the coolant to 70 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit
    (20 minutes to 60 minute warmup via 400 Watt EHB).

    FWIW the point of diminishing returns for an EHB heating session is 90 minutes.
    Most people who use them and talk about using EHB in 30 minutes to 45 minutes sessions.

    Since most people don't have access to electricity at the parking space where they work
    the advantage is only for the commute to work. Because the the electricity that is used
    to run the EHB cost $$ - there is a break-even point cost wise between the added
    fuel efficiency derived from the Prius and the cost of running the EHB.

    A EHB unit does not last forever - excluding accidents - my research suggests that
    the Mean Time Before Failure Rate for an EHB is about 3 to 5 years.

    For a Prius - the shorten warmup cycle that an EHB brings means a hypermiler can start doing a full P&G cycle sooner.

    The EHB cost about $60 but installation is expensive. For those without a garage, an exterior outdoor outlet with atleast a 15 AMP circuit breaker is needed ( automatic timer is nice too).

    hope this helps
    Walter Lee
    aka HyperDrive 1
    [1] Mean Number of Days With Minimum Temperature 32 Degrees F or Less
     
    #38 walter Lee, Sep 8, 2012
  19. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Great info Walter, thanks! My garage does stay fairly warm. I would guess it hovers around 50 unless it gets really cold. That being said, I plan on using my 4wd truck on the very coldest of days as well as any day where there is snow or ice. Those combined factors would make the EBH even less useful for me. I will also be in Florida for about 2 weeks this year. I also didn't realize that an EBH doesn't last forever either. So all that probably makes it not worth it for me. (I will be doing grill blocking though!)
     
    #39 markabele, Sep 9, 2012
  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    ^ Regarding grill block, here's a little blocking you can leave in year 'round. If you're using a block heater I think it will help to homogenize the heat in the engine compartment, and hold the heat in while driving as well. I believe this was suggested here by ferls80, but a little hazy on that.

    5D_055-055.jpg
     
    #40 Mendel Leisk, Sep 9, 2012
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