Maybe a Fusion Energi plug-in instead of a PiP?

This is a trick question. We don't have enough information to answer because the amount of dead weight depends on the driver.

 

Just as you are forced to carry around the rear seat and all the steel that supports it - you carry the engine too.

I think this whole line of attack is just silly, anyway.

Infact I'd have preferred that Volt was a pure EREV. Just like i3 will be (with optional engine).

 

I would prefer a pure serial hybrid for a plug in, too. Since transmissions of any type are a failure risk with all their moving parts.

 

EREV's are definitely the better choice. I'm willing to give up purity for efficiency. And at least the Volt transmission is relatively simple. (Basically a variation of the Prius HSD, with different elements). It speed matches before any clutching so that should help reliability.

Nice article on EREV as the bridge to pure EV at
Gear Head: Automakers keep pushing EVs | Driving | National Post

Which also touts the new MB B-class EREV.
Mercedes Plans B-Class Range-Extended Electric Car For U.S.

Not much details yet but glad to see more are coming. Competition is good for innovation.

 

Satire in posts seems to get lost.
There was more to my post originally. Determining if a pure serial is worth consideration depends on the EV range and fuel economy. Plus, packaging is also big issue. The A1 Etron is a serial. It still manages around 40mpg, but likely has higher emissions from the rotary. Its 30 mile EV range might be too low for NA, but it doesn't lose passenger and cargo space from the non hybrid.

It's like discussions on BEV range extenders. The less a person would need to use it, the more likely they are willing accept lower fuel economy and higher emissions.

In the Volt's case, it was a good decision. They couldn't use their ideal engine, or even run what they had at ideal loads and keep it acceptable to the consumer.

It isn't Prius high, but the fuel economy is still good. Now, hypothetically, if the Volt had a smaller genset, and was a pure serial to make room for more batteries, how much extra range would you need to accept a 5 mpg drop in CS mode?

 

Good post.

The answer to your final question will, of course, vary with the driver. Since my daily commute is already within the volt's range (32-36 miles), I would not think to trade more battery range for a 5mpg drop in CS, nor would I want to reduce the battery range much for an increase in CS.
My largest use of gas is now on road trips (>300 miles) well beyond battery range, and with all those miles the drop in CS would not be justified even if I had a 120m battery. (That analysis is part of why I have a Volt, not a Leaf).


But the trades are not just battery for milage, there are other dimensions too. While I love the Volt's ultra-quite ride, I would trade, on some trips, increased noise for increase in CS. By playing games on when one uses the ICE in the Volt seems to do that.. see this thread at GM-Volt
MM Gaming - 25% gains in MPG and EV Range! My experiment results...)
with data that shows the OP is effectively getting around 47-50 MPG in CS mode on repeated experiments. I do the same thing but have not done as many controlled experiments as I don't use the ICE that much. Knowing when one wants to use the engine to recharge is powerful. (Nice to use BMW announcing a function to use of Nav planning for when to use the ICE. I'd be happy with a hold button). Will be interesting to see what the Energi gets and what controls it gives the driver.

 

A car suppose to carry people and cargo. A powertrain is not supposed to carry another powertrain, especially at full power.

For example, cylinder deactivation fires all cylinders at full power. It would be a dead weight if you have a V8 engine that uses only 4 cylinders at full power as well.

Volt has two powertrains that makes up a hybrid drivetrain. The gas powertrain remains dead at full power and it is a dead weight 97% of the time for someone like drinnovation.

Gas and electric engines work together for Fusion Energy and Prius PHV so nothing is wasted/unused under the hood.

 

I've heard the Volt did run noisier rpms or even in narrower bands for better efficiency. It was determined to be unacceptable for most buyers. Can't think of any reason why GM couldn't install an eco mode for the ICE to use those parameters.

There have been some negative comments about the rotary's hum in the A1. I don't think Audi skimps on noise reduction. So it might be some people are just sensitive to the frequency, or that fact it's monotone and doesn't change with what the car is doing. Even in EVs, the motor's pitch varies with load. People expect it, and the unexpected stands out.

 

A car should do what it can do carry its passengers efficiently. The Volt has only one power-train, just two possible sources of power The gas power-source is less efficient, more expensive to use and generates more pollution, so it should only be used when its really needed. A pure BEV would be more efficient, but occasionally people need to go farther, hence the need for a hyhrid. The engine is not dead weight, its reserve capacity that allows me to have a vehicle that is more efficient than a Prius (and likely PiP or Energi) and more practical for me than a BEV.

Why does the Prius have such a big engine.. it could easily be driven by a 1.4L? Oh wait, its useful for maybe 3% of the driving to have the added power of a 1.8L engine. By your logic, the added size is dead weight. But the 1.8L may also be more fuel efficient.

How often something is used does not determine its value. I spend less than 5% of my time driving per day.. does that make owning a car dead weight? I spend less than 1% of my day actually chewing food -- does that make my teeth dead weight?

Something being wasted depends on what the owners wants/needs. Owning a car is not a waste to me. The engine is not wasted in my Volt.

Blended PHEV's like the PiP and Energi are cheaper, and for some neighborhood driving patterns they may be more efficient. For other driving patterns an EREV like the Volt is more efficient (and maybe also more fun). Hopefully the Energi will have a more useful EV range than a PiP, but neither has a formalized range yet so cannot tell.

 

Toyota tried that, it was less efficient. Even a small percentage of the time at heavier acceleration burns a larger proportion of the gas, than the smaller engine would save. If anything the prius v, with that same drive train may be under powered, but is more efficient than the one in the hs250. This is the problem with people guesstimating size for the mean, is we don't drive it. If you add up all the motors and engines the prius phv has a lot of power that it can not use and this makes it heavier, but it is more efficient than just having the engine That's why we do engineering. The volt likely does not have an optimal engine, and could be improved with a higher horsepower turbo 3-cyl like the ford ecoboost. That would cost more money though and may hurt marketing to have 3 instead of a 4 cylinder engine. Perception is sometimes reality with these newer designs. Not many bought the first generation prius. I'm sure people think the prius phv is a waste just like the volt. But really these are more efficient, we just need to bring the price down. I have only used 5 seats once, and the child in the back could have sat in a lap. I only use the backseat 2% of the time, so the regular prius wastes a great deal of space that more batteries and a bigger motor could occupy.

 

The 1.8L may be more efficient for the driving public, but gen2 with the 1.5L (supposedly) has a higher fuel efficiency potential for those who know how to get it.

 

All those hypermilers that had both back when I bought my gen III in '09, got better mileage with the 1.8L. They claimed it was harder to hypermile in the gen III though.

 

20 Miles.

C-Max Energi: 20 Miles Electric Range : What does that mean ?

 

Thanks.. I knew what Ford was saying and people were guessing, just not if EPA had an official number. Usable range will also mean the levels of acceleration it will support before switching on the ICE.

Not exactly sure how Energy/PIP will get an EPA AER number with the new test proceedures if one cannot do US06 in EV mode. But US06 requires high-acceleration and speeds above 62mph. That can really eat into EV range, but may also cause ICE starts.

 

None of the numbers are official

2011 Chevrolet Volt vs. 2011 Chevrolet Cruze Eco - Comparison Test - Car and Driver

I assume the energi and phv do the same thing. They only are running the two tests, city and highway, not US06, then using the epa fudge factors. We are guessing the prius phv 87mpg includes some gas use, while the energi 100mpg likely uses no or almost no gasoline. The electric portion of the battery in state of charge would be CD distance, but there is uncertainty here. I don't expect official numbers from toyota until just before launch of the phv.

 

Each test is s pretty involved. EPA testing follows SAE Recommended Practice J1711 which is more complicated as it must determine charge depleting and charge sustaining modes, so they keep running it until the battery is dead (CD) then again with CS mode.

I thought the EPA regulations passed in 1996 for the new 5 cycle testing were required starting for 2012 models. It is confusing with 5 cycles of city/highway used in the old test and 5 types of cycles (city/highway/US06/SC03/Cold temperature test) used in the new testing. Seems they keep delaying when the full 5 types of cycle will be required.

I had seen this doc
http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leaf/EPA/EPA_test_procedure_for_EVs-PHEVs-1-13-2011.pdf
before and was working from memory.

It said 5 cycle testing for the EV. Reading it more carefully they apparently use 5-cycles of highway/city for EV testing and only charge sustaining mode testing uses the 5-types of cycles (including US06) and even then its only on some vehicles (not stated how that is decided).

 

Well, Ford hasn't even given out an EPA number for Focus Electric - a car you can order now (and apprently 8 of them were delivered last month).

 

I assume that prius phv and ford's energi will use the strangely negotiated tests for phev.

Car and Driver Blog » Chevrolet Volt EPA Numbers Revealed, Dissected

Blended range is even more convoluted.... So until real drivers can do comparison tests we won't really know. The leaf went through the 5 cycle test. I do not know if this was their choice, or if BEV and PHEV rules are different.

 

Surprising! They are allowed to sell without the EPA sticker?

 

Its just like the phv. They can't "sell' it, but they can take your order, build it, and take some money.