Toyota Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle advanced (FCHV-adv)

Interesting. EV edges over Prius and FCHV way ahead in the overall well-to-wheel efficiency. Plugins should be somewhere in the 32%.

Fuel Cell hybrid looks very promising at 40-42%.

 

The reported 39% well to tank may be true in Japan for electricity, but it is quite a bit less in the US.

 

Hydrogen ... (covering mouth with both hands)

 

You really shouldn't. You can be skeptical, but it's a technology that we really need to succeed since it's more efficient than CNG and better for long range than BEV.

 

I knew fueling hydrogen is fast but I didn't know it is that fast.

 

(ok - I'll bite ... I tried to be quitet)As PC member "buritos" so often states (paraphrased) - "I don't think we have a hose, long enough to reach the sun". If you don't get it, here's what that means:

From "The hydrogen hoax"
The New Atlantis » The Hydrogen Hoax

And each new decade, the researchers continue to say how close we are to a breakthrough ... "in just 10 years ...". Right. Oh well, at least the cost of the vehicles and their expensive (consumable) stack gets cheeper and cheepr. I understand the cost per vehicle, in theory, is down to just a few hundered thousand, if mass produced.
(shaking head)
.

 

It seems to be an extra step as opposed to use CNG. Is there a cost to produce hydrogen from natural gas or other fuel sources or is it cheaper to just use natural gas.

 

I think producing hydrogen from natural gas is the most efficient process due to plasma catalyst process. With 67-70% efficiency, it is much better than combustion engine using the same natural gas.

 

They were comparing the energy loss from the conversion method vs. the energy of hydrogen (the end result).

If we apply the same logic to electricity, it takes about 2 kWh (equivalent of energy loss) to produce 1 kWh of electricity. That's because power plants are 32.8% efficient.

Hydrogen "power plants" are 67 to 70% efficient.

 

That quote really misses the point. The point about HFCs is that they are much more practical than BEVs due to higher energy density and faster refueling. The energy density increases range and the faster refueling means that you don't need a dedicated personal charger to drive one. That means that the potential user base is much higher than BEVs.

Also, as you know, it doesn't necessarily matter that the process to create the hydrogen is lossy. After all, you charge your LEAF using a lossy process but then take advantage of the high efficiency from storage to wheel. HFCVs work the same way.

Only three things matter: well to wheel efficiency, sustainability and pollution. Well to wheel efficiency of HFCVs is relative high; hydrogen can be generated using renewables; and an HFCV doesn't output any harmful pollution.

10 years ago opponents were saying "but they all cost a million dollars" and now they don't.

Actually, I believe the cost has dropped more than you say and Toyota are planning to begin selling them in 2015. Last guess was around $50k for a mid-size, but I suspect that Toyota is depending on some expected advances and could well be planning initial sales at small volume at a loss.

Cost is still a huge obstacle, but given the potential, the advances that have been made and given that we don't yet have sustainable transportation, I think that simply dismissing it is sadder than those that dismiss BEV because it isn't a complete solution.

If governments were going whole hog on HFCV I'd be annoyed, but fortunately they aren't: they're supporting BEV and PHEV (and by extension HEV) because of the impact they can have and treating HFCVs as the research project they deserve to be.

 

If a gas station were to add hydrogen refueling capability, how much would that cost them?
Has anybody heard of a guesstimate?

 

The site that Paradox gave has the info for the number of FCHVs can be supported from government funding. It is superior to the EV charging stations because hydrogen simply fuel faster. FCHV won't have to be parked there to refuel. The driver would wait while refueling H2 and get out as soon as it is done, like a gas station.

Here is for the lazy

 

Cost competitive fuel ?
900 cents/65 miles = 13.8 cents a mile.

I currently pay about 5 cents a mile.

 

It is competitive when compared to 25 MPG car but to a 50 MPG Prius.

Future estimate price looks promising. 300 cents / 65 miles = 4.6 cents per mile.

 

This Problem is solved by PHEVs that can fuel quickly. They can be made to use CNG if you want to use the same fuel as hydrogen vehicles. The problem with phevs is cost, but their cost is much lower than FCEVs and the infrastructure is mostly in place. I would like to see FCEV research continue, but we should be honest about their problems. PHEVs are the current most practical solution. If you note toyota has production EV and PHEV that will ship before their next demo of FCEV.

The experimental hydrogen fueling station here cost $1M to build. The plug in FCHEV Buses they are playing with seem like a good application. Central hydrogen fueling and plugging in, small fuel cell since the vehicle can recharge its batteries during stops.

 

Hydrogen infrastructure on a national scale, has been estimated (conservatively) to cost a trillion dollars ... if you believe estemates ever stay within budget. I guess we'll just have to pony up for on income taxes. You don't have a problem with that, I hope.

CA, known for it's willingness to move forward with even half way hopefull ideas, commissioned Shell oil to begin part of the beginings of hydrogen infrastructure. Later on, Shell politely back out, due to the financial infeasability ... meaning CA wasn't willing to throw enough $$$ into it.

 

If you are interested and get to austin you should ride the fc bus, and see the presentation. That $1M is for a smaller capacity station. I would use the german figures of about 2M euros - $2.6M per fueling station. They are planing to spend 3 billion euros on their test case. These numbers support hills case of very expensive infrastructure.

Jumping on the Austin Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus | Cleantech Map Blog

State of texas is not building this hydrogen infrastructure, but Electric recharging stations for EVs and PHEVs are being built on this corridor.

 

So, besides the infrastructure cost of setting up stations, the fuel cells will last ~5000 kw. I am not sure what that means in terms of usage, life expectancy, but I suppose that there will be a warranty. So, a typical FCV will have 2 expensive components: a Lithium battery and Fuel Cells.

 

The author of that piece did a bad job, it should be 5000 hours not kw. With a big battery that fuel cell doesn't need to run all the time, but vibration will reduce it's useful life. Bringing down the cost of the fc down and usefull life up are required as well as building the fueling infrastructure. Your conclusion is correct.

The Toyota FCEV-adv demo vehicle currently has a nimh battery, but I would expect a large lithium one in any production model.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/11/you-cant-afford-toyotas-fuel-cell-vehicle/