Conversion to plug-in: NOT WORTH IT?

Still no right =.
100,000 miles at 100 mpg, 1000 gallons of gas, $3500, PHEV kit, $3500, total $7000 + electricity cost = $8250

In order to get 100 mpg, half of the mileage is drive by electricity.
Assuming $0.10 per kWh and 4 miles per kWh,
((100,000/2)/4) * $0.10 = $1250

The break even mileage is higher then 100,000.

 

That's what the calculator is for. Stop second guessing. It may not be totally accurate but it's a lot more accurate than just pulling numbers out of your head. (Not you directly) And yes, It'll take more than 100,000 miles to recupe the Enginer kit and more than 200,000 miles to recupe a Plugin Supply kit and more than 300,000 miles to recupe a Hymotion kit and PICC kit. For monetary pay pack it is totally not worth it for any kit, even the Enginer kit at below cost. It is totally worth if the sole purpose is to drive a 100+MPG car.

 

HA! good luck getting that rate in California unless you're on the CARE program.

 

Then you can add to that Peukert's and converter efficiency (if talking Enginer), which means that it will take about 4 kWh of grid energy to deliver 3 kWh of energy to the wheels.

Then you can factor in all miles driven with an empty pack, at lower than 50 mpg due to the added weight.

Then you can factor in replacing your lithium pack every 3-5 years.

The whole point is that, unless gas prices are really high (i.e. Europe), PHEV isn't something to do to save money.

 

In California the lithium pack would be covered for the full five years, per the required warranty.
I was listening to a news station this morning and they are saying gas could get to $5 per gallon by summer. they are using the current average price per gallon ( I pay about $3.60 per gallon at Costco) and extrapolating the demand and current price per barrel. So, I figured I would again see if I could justify the Enginer kit. This time I used 75mpg as my blended rate. (This is not considering the price of electricty because I have excess from my solar panels that will cover it)
150,000 miles at 50mpg ($3.50/gal) - $10,500
150,000 miles at 50mpg ($5.00.gal) - $15,000
150,000 miles at 75mpg (3.50/gal) - $7,000 + Enginer ($4880) = $11,880
150,000 miles at 75mph ($5.00/gal) - $10,000 + Enginer (4880) = $14,880

I will have to pay $4880.00 for a 4kW kit in California. At that price the breakeven is 150,000 miles if the price of gas is $5.00 per gallon from the first day I install and I actually get an average of 75mpg.
It takes 232,000 miles if gas stays at $3.50.
I see plenty of pictures of 99.9 mpg on this site, but is that for a short period, or is that an actual average tank to tank?

I still want one, though.

 

I still want a conversion kit too! But for now I'll wait and see what crude price will do, there's lots of talk about shadow or dark inventories if you like that's lurking out there held by hedgefunds, don't know how much truth that is...and also the durability and lifespan of these battery are still questionable. But economically the b/e level is getting very close for the conversion kit, IMO.

And besides the economic factor, crude oil is such a crude form of energy isn't it? It's 2012, and we're still spilling, drilling, contaminating the earth's water and ecosystem, causing cancer, choking the air we breath, bombing countries, too much to list here, etc etc etc. Surely, just because one choose to go EV doesn't necessarily make them a treehugger does it?

Iran will be bomb for the same reason they bombed Iraq, Libya, et al.

The 4kW Plugin Supply kit ($6k) allows you go over 70mph on pure EV mode. Pretty cool! How powerful is that tiny electric motor in our Prii pulling a 3000lbs car?

 

60 kW (80 hp) isn't what I'd consider tiny, especially since the assist hybrids only use 10 & 15 kW sizes. There's no size difference in the PHV model either. It just draws more power from the pack for more power to the wheels.
.

 

So if I wanted to bring down the 0-60 time down to say something more respectable like 6sec, I can just simply install a more powerful (lighter ideally) battery pack?! Also, does this mean when the ICE finally fails, I can simply convert this Prii into a full EV couln't I? Wow, no wonder the oil companies hates this car.

 

"Powerful battery" is meaningless. You need something to convert input power to output power to the motors. If you boost the inverter output, then it will automatically gain more HP. You can use the same battery pack. However, more power out, means more power in. So the same battery pack will be discharged quicker and at a quicker rate. So for sustained increase in power, you will need a battery pack big enough to supply juice, but eventually you will run out. Consider it "electrical NOS".

If you neglect the ICE and it dies at a million or so miles, then yes you can run in EV mode. However, the Prius uses the engine to charge the battery. So you can run in EV mode until the pack dies which will be about 1.5miles. Adding a much larger pack and grid charging would alleviate that. But you would lose cabin heating, lubrication, and so on. So it will die shortly thereafter.

With an EV conversion and light use of the gasoline engine to keep things lubricated and provide power for high acceleration needs (merging) great efficiency can be made and the car will last longer than most people.

 

I'd love to get a higher capacity conversion kit and turn this button into electric NOS.



...because as of now, the naysayer about this car (still! can you believe it?) mocks me when I drive with the "power mode" on. I personally thought the car is quite powerful and responsive but i guess that depends on your bias.

 

There is no conversion kit you can buy. You will need extensive electrical knowledge and Prius knowledge to pull it off. Or beg and plead with the Toyota engineers that made the landspeed record Prius to make you one (not going to happen).

The car is quite powerful and responsive. It is not as powerful or responsive as a car with launch control, but that's not what it is meant for. I have a sports car too and performance makes no difference almost all of the time. I get to the next red light along with everyone else. If you can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, it doesn't really matter because you will be doing 0-whatever in the same time as whatever the front car is doing it in.

 

I think I've figured out how to nail the cost down and make an extra battery bank work. What I've realized is the car battery build needs to be directly relevant to the miles we drive every day and sized perfectly. I understand that the prius uses about 250-300 watts/mile. If I add batteries - I can build a system reasonably that gives me my commute each way and pays itself off quicker. Here's my plan:

76 10ah pouch cells in a case I make (76 x 3.2v x 10Ah = 2432 watt hours) in parallel to factory pack with batteries at $990, plus about $600 for a good charger, $30 for a relay. This with factory battery gives 3.8kwh of which I could expect 3.4 safe usable kwh. 3400/250wh-m = 13.6 miles.
If I forget about all of the interface crap, the voltage charged in has to go somewhere and it will be used for driving. With secondary pack up at 3.6v each, the aux pack is 273v.
If I drive under 52mph (I believe), I can be all electric. Even on highway with ICE on, with high pack voltage - it'll use less gas.
Aux cells with higher voltage will allow amps to drift to factory cells and keep the prius in all electric mode under more conditions.
My commute is 15 miles. Gas consumption should be able to go well above 100mpg to an almost all elec usage. If driven right, and charged at both ends, payback changes dramatically.
Here are my assumptions: $1620 cost plus incidentals. Negligible cost of electricity. 50mpg after pack depletion. 80mpg mixed mode (normal driving with charge). Infinity mpg on careful under 52 driving. $5/gallon. $10,000 for 100,000 miles at 50mpg.
If the above, and I attain 40% ev miles, 40% mixed, and 20% depleted (trips) then 100,000 miles would look like this:
40% ev = free, 40% mixed = $2500, 20% depleted = $2000. Thus $4500 per 100k miles.
Further, thus a 55% discount on $5 gas. Payback then is around 30,000 miles ($1620 + 45% fuel cost).
What do you all think about that? Not sure how good my numbers are, but it should work.

The idea is to buy the minimum battery pack possible to commute one way. On evtv these guys routinely spend $6-8k + on packs when the added range is rarely used. Thus as phev people we can capitalize on our ICE backup and design systems that are reasonably priced and sized to accomplish our goals. This is where i think Toyota nailed it with their plug in.

 

I was pretty excited about getting maybe at least the Engineer kit, but reading how this thread basically ended has put me into a severe state of depression...time for a Xanax...

 

Yeah, it's sad how it's worked out for the worse...

My conclusion led me to trade in my 2012 Prius Five- for a 2012 PIP.
In the end- in 2013 if you want an extended range EV- buy an extended range EV! It's just not practical to convert a hybrid like the regular Prius into something it wasn't engineered to be.

 

i wonder how aeschuck is making out with his conversion? he seemed to have it all nailed down.

 

So maybe its a matter of prospective (making it subjective as someone noted earlier) but here's how I see it.

I pay $5000 for a used Prius and optionally $3500 for a PHEV kit.

I drive 112 miles per week in my commute.

The all gas van I normally drive gets 17 mpg. Gas in my section of NC is avg. $3.50/gal.

((112 * 52) / 17) * 3.50 = $1200 (round figure) per year for gas

Considering only the cost of my Prius:

((112 * 52) / 50) * 3.50 = $400 (round figure) per year for gas

Savings in gas per year driving the Prius = $800

Payback time for the cost of my Prius in: a) years = 6.25 b) miles = 36400

Payback time for the cost of a PHEV kit (without considering the additional mileage gains) in: a) years = 4.4 b) miles = 25480

The payback on the PHEV shortens slightly if the additional mileage savings is considered.

So... I *will* pay someone that $800 per year... either the gas pump or the cost of my hybrid/EV equipment. But if I choose to pay for the hybrid/EV equip, after 61880 miles, I pocket the $800+/yr savings.

This seems a more valid ROI technique given that nearly all of us *will* drive. In other words, if the options were to drive an all gas vehicle or walk, the odds are very good that most of us would choose to drive the all gas vehicle. So the yearly cost of gas for an all gas vehicle really provides the base cost-of-travel against which savings and ROI should be calculated, imho. Should we arrive at a day when there is no such thing as an all gas vehicle then the base cost will change.

(This all assumes, of course, that there are no major mechanical/electrical failures/repairs. Note also that this analysis does not include the modest increase to my electric bill once I go PHEV. 1 gal of gas = aprox. 33.7 KWh and 33.7 KWh at my current electric rates runs abt. $1.685 (off-peak).)

Chris

 

Keep what you have and enjoy it. Even if gas prices were to triple, there is comfort knowing you have the BEST hybrid on the market. If the '011 is paid for - good for you!

When you are in the market for a new Prius, then reconsider your driving habits and the possiblr purchase of a PIP.

Until then, enjoy your current vehicle and life.

DBCassidy

 

Chris_13, do you see used Gen IIs come up for sale at $5K on a regular basis? I've yet to see that around here unless you are talking about a Gen I, or a Gen II with a major problem. A Gen I Honda Insight would pay off even faster (55-60+ MPG), but they are getting very long in the tooth as well as being hard to come by and just about all of them have battery problems.

If your weekly commute is 112 miles, then you have 11.2 miles each way. Prime territory for PiP or PHEV if you charge at work. Don't forget to factor in that many of your miles will be non-commuting...unless you save the fun trips for the Veyron.

 

The current conversion solutions for Prius 2010+ only supply a "Piggyback" battery system, which doesn't really convert Prius 2010+ into a real EV plug-in, so there isn't a real measurable gain in fuel economy. Current conversion will actually prematurely degrade the NiMH battery due to large increases in discharge/charge cycles.

Until there is a conversion solution that allow Prius 2010+ to switch between EV and Hybrid mode it really doesn't make any sense to do it since there is only negligible reduction in emission and improvement to fuel economy.

 

Please qualify premature degradation of the Prius NiMH battery caused by "large increases in discharge/charge cycles"

If a Standard Prius driver uses EV mode over a 35km road trip the engine will come on more times to recharge the battery than if the driver used a PHEV kit. If I average 38km/h my PHEV kit Prius will have not cycled once.