1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Prius PHV - Production battery cells

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by usbseawolf2000, Feb 15, 2012.

Page 1 of 2
  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I was comparing the specs from the 2010 prototype plugin with the 2012 production version spec from the owner's manual. Here are the specs (2012/2010):

    Voltage: 3.7V / 3.6V
    Capacity: 21.5 Ah / 5 Ah
    Quantity: 56 / 288
    Overall Voltage: 207V / 345.6V

    The production cells are much bigger so the quantity dropped from 288 to 56, wow! It'll take all 56 cells x 3.7V to reach the 207V pack overall voltage. This means all 4 modules would have to be used together at the same time. There is no more active/inactive module stuffs from the prototype.
     
    #1 usbseawolf2000, Feb 15, 2012
    Simtronic likes this.
  2. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    3,326
    1,512
    38
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    That threw me off too. So I took a look at the wiring diagram.

    Of interest, the 150A fuse, which dictates a limit of 30 kW for propulsion.
     

    Attached Files:

    #2 seilerts, Feb 15, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  3. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    1,077
    197
    0
    Location:
    Randolph, MA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    What 4 modules would that be? It appears to be 1 large single pack now...
     
    #3 mitch672, Feb 15, 2012
  4. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    29,110
    8,589
    201
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    #4 Paradox, Feb 15, 2012
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Interesting. At 207V, max is 31 kW.
     
    #5 usbseawolf2000, Feb 15, 2012
  6. Tracksyde

    Tracksyde Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    1,429
    761
    0
    Location:
    So Cal
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base

    Attached Files:

    #6 Tracksyde, Feb 15, 2012
  7. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    2,940
    1,365
    67
    Location:
    Yokohama, JAPAN
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    JP sales staff manual says max 38kW battery power.
    I don't know the JP PiP fuse rating.

    Ken@Japan
     

    Attached Files:

    #7 ken1784, Feb 16, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  8. Tracksyde

    Tracksyde Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    1,429
    761
    0
    Location:
    So Cal
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Thanks, Ken.. hopefully its 38kW for the USDM PiP

    ("Thanks" still works on Tapatalk on my iPad :p)
     
    #8 Tracksyde, Feb 16, 2012
  9. andi1111

    andi1111 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    270
    63
    0
    Location:
    EU
    Vehicle:
    2012 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    3.7 V is a nominal, not max. voltage for certain Li-XX chemistry cells. Max. voltage for 3.7V nominal cells is 4.2V.
    So, with 56 cells, that would make it a 235V max voltage. Ok, it's going to be a little lower, since the cells won't be fully charged - only to about 90% SOC.

    4.2V * 56 cells * 150A = 35kW.

    However, these fuses are made to withstand more amps for short bursts (10 seconds) that they are rated to, so 38kW power is possible.
     
    #9 andi1111, Feb 16, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  10. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    730
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    Japan and US versions may be different with respect to max battery power (which corresponds to max load still in EV). However, this corresponds also to EV efficiency and (blended mode) range.
    38 kW is nice but it lowers the EV efficiency and range as compared to (say) 31 kW. Since EPA label is the yardstick for efficiency, I personally prefer lower kWh/mile and higher Rcda on the label even if this means the ICE is joining earlier.

    Another aspect may be battery loads, battery life expectation and warranty.
     
    #10 giora, Feb 16, 2012
  11. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    4,374
    313
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    fom 3.6 to 3,7? what type of lithium are they using?
     
    #11 Flying White Dutchman, Feb 16, 2012
  12. andi1111

    andi1111 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    270
    63
    0
    Location:
    EU
    Vehicle:
    2012 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    #12 andi1111, Feb 16, 2012
  13. ryogajyc

    ryogajyc Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2004
    985
    165
    0
    Location:
    Reseda, CA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    I think you have it backwards. ICE joining earlier means the MPGe drops and potentially 0 EV miles (if the EPA requires EV miles to be driven at a speed where the ICE kicks in).
     
    #13 ryogajyc, Feb 16, 2012
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    It depends on how much MPGe gets boosted vs the hit in MPG. The difference between 38kW and 31kW will not make it 0 EV miles. Toyota already said you can get 10-15 EV miles with speeds up to 62 mph.
     
    #14 usbseawolf2000, Feb 16, 2012
  15. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    This is what I found. It is made by Sanyo which is part of Panasonic group, per this press release.

    This is what the cell looks like:

    [​IMG]

    This is from the battery guru (Dr.Anderman):

    He said top executives at Sanyo, the world’s largest lithium battery producer, told him the company is only developing two automotive-size cells for the near-term future—5-A·h cells for HEVs and 21-A·h for PHEVs and EVs.

    “Two sizes, that’s it—if you want it, this is what they offer,” he noted. “But concentrating on those two cells, Sanyo will get performance and reliability up and cost down. Later they’ll develop probably an EV cell, similar to the PHEV cell but higher energy or a different cell size.”

    Sanyo’s 21-A·h cell was designed for Toyota’s new PHEV architecture. The company also offered the same cell to Audi (who is buying it), as well as offering it to Ford, he said. Toyota, Hitachi, and some other leading battery makers have the same philosophy as Sanyo’s—limit the complexity and focus engineering resources on fewer cells and fewer configurations.

    Will Ford be using the same Sanyo cells in their Energi plugin cars?
     
    #15 usbseawolf2000, Feb 16, 2012
    2 people like this.
  16. sxotty

    sxotty Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    224
    28
    0
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Bigger cells have many drawbacks, cost just isn't one of them.
     
    #16 sxotty, Feb 16, 2012
  17. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    4,374
    313
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    thx

    not to bad compared to the lifepo4 used with lots of DIY EV these days

    LiCoO2 0.518 kW·h/kg

    LiFePO4 0.495 kW·h/kg

    not sure about the A123 prismatic pouches ( also used in the fisker? )
     
    #17 Flying White Dutchman, Feb 16, 2012
  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Excellent research. Thanks!

    The same article also says:
    The NMC movement

    In Dr. Anderman’s lastest forecast, nickel-manganese cobalt (NMC) and the cylindrical metal “can†appear to be emerging as the predominant cathode material and battery-cell package, respectively, for automotive use going forward. Battery companies that started with nickel-cobalt aluminum (NCA) have migrated or are in the process of migrating to NMC because they made more development progress with it and have found its inherent safety “is a little easier to manage.â€

    Likewise, several companies that started with the lower cost, very safe lithium-manganese oxide (LMO), including Hitachi and GS Yuasa, migrated to LMO/NMC blends and are now moving to NMC to achieve greater energy density.

    The LG Chem cells used in the Volt are an LMO/NMC blend which, the article notes, is the near-term trend in the industry because it performs well and has inherent safety advantages over NCA.
     
    #18 Jeff N, Feb 16, 2012
  19. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Here's a link to an earlier thread where I described what is known about the cell used in the Volt.

    http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...hv-available-winter-2012-a-5.html#post1450614

    I also included links to some source material. One especially interesting and recent one is a NASA comparison of 4 cell designs for possible use in space missions. One cell is from A123, 2 are NMC-based from Dow-Kokam and EIG, and the final is the cell design used in Volt.

    The cells are compared under a 4C discharge rate so some of the quoted numbers are lower than they would be if quoted under the usual industry practice of 1C or even lower discharge rates.

    See slide 8 for a 4C rate comparison of the complete cells.
    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120000040_2011025423.PDF

    There is some additional description of the cells in an earlier preliminary report:

    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110011197_2011010830.pdf
     
    #19 Jeff N, Feb 16, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  20. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    730
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    Where in my post did you find any mention of MPGe? I was speaking of EV efficiency (in terms of miles/kWh).

    As I understand (and correct me if I am wrong) if the the ICE kicks in during the test then EPA reports EV miles as Rcda (actual charge depleting range) rather than AER (all electric range) and these will certainly not be zero!
     
    #20 giora, Feb 16, 2012
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2