Prius C why not GM

Well, the battery has to power the wheels alone. I don't see much room to lower the cost.

To lower the cost, the latest breakthrough in battery technology is required to provide enough power with smaller battery and maintain the durability / warranty. But then, the latest the isn't the lowest cost.

 

I'm not aware of the 2-mode transmission being unreliable. Do you have a source for that? The 1st generation BAS mild hybrid included a defective 36V battery design by Cobasys that resulted in a recall but I'm not aware of non-battery problems with that older BAS design.

I'm happy that GM created a full hybrid design (2-mode) for large SUVs, trucks, and busses. These were product spaces which would otherwise not have a hybrid option.

Unfortunately, GM priced the hybrid option too high and focused on a "performance hybrid" slant rather than an "economy hybrid" with a smaller engine. Many, but not all, SUV and truck owners do not have a hybrid efficiency mindset but it's good that buyers who care can have options. Some people actually make good use of SUVs and trucks rather than driving them around as weird status or power symbols.

 

GM could try and make a Prius 'c' competitor, but what is the point ?
No government subsidy/bailout/support there.

Ethanol
Hydrogen
Electric

GM survives on the government dole, jumping from one federal fancy to the next.

 

I think I partially disagree. I said it before, and got slammed. But I'll say it again. Toyota is the KING of Alternative Automobile choices.

The fact that HSD technology has been around for for a while, and is Toyota's domain doesn't excuse GM or any other manufacturer from the reality that they have been hesitant and unwilling to even try to compete with Toyota.

And I disagree at least in part with the statement that there is nothing that Toyota had to re-invent. HSD and Prius has evolved...if not re-invented. The 3rd Gen Prius "Re-Invented" a heat reclamation system for coolant heating, as well as a significantly lightened and redesigned power train. Coupled with a beltless engine and fully electric accessories, that no longer ran off belts.

The New Prius C is further re-invention, shrinking and lightening HSD technology even further. Kudo's to Toyota that it wasn't blank paper, genesis invention, but the evolution itself is re-invention.

You can compare Prius C to Volt, or the release of The Volt to the original release of The Prius...but I don't think that's the point.

I don't know how much of GM's hesistancy to try to create mainstream products of an "alternative" nature is part of their corportate Psyche...

But Toyota has certainly led the way. GM and others are following but IMO pretty slowly.

As far as a Hybrid with HSD...a lot may have more to do with Toyota patents, and a complicated infrastructure to produce them.

I'm glad The Volt exists. And for those that can afford one, and enjoy all the benefits...more power to ya...

But it's still a pretty rare and niche product. GM may have plans to expand their "Alternative" offerings and I sincerely hope they do, but with GM? I'll believe it when I see it. With Toyota...I already see it...and I can go touch it....and even purchase it...and I don't need upwards of $40,000 to do it.

 

Electric-me reminded me of a thread I keep meaning to post about the Prius 'c' drivetrain. I gather the transmission has been changed from a power PSD to two. Am I correct in thinking this is a novel Toyota HSD ?

 

I'll have to check on the transmission, but my statement stands regarding the lack of reliability of the two modes, at least for the Tahoe Hybrid. The Tahoe Hybrid earned the dubious distinction of being one of the least reliable vehicles per Consumer Reports. See In Pictures: The Worst Cars On The Road - Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid - Forbes.com, http://autos.yahoo.com/news/the-worst-cars-on-the-road-20110418.html?page=all and http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/2248291-418/car-suv-toyota-upscale-dodge.html. Although the sample size was small (2), the two Tahoe Hybrids at Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity - Hybrid Electric Vehicles didn't do so hot, w/one needing a replacement engine at 61K miles.

There were apparently two recalls regarding hybrid batteries on BAS hybrids. See http://priuschat.com/forums/gm-hybrids/84014-yet-another-gm-mild-hybrid-recall-malibu-aura-vue.html. One Vue Hybrid at the above Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity - Hybrid Electric Vehicles needed two hybrid battery replacements. Not sure why the other had only one.

 

To my best knowledge, the Prius c drive train is a downscaled Prius 3 HSD drivetrain. They just omitted PWR mode, but that is just electronics. They optimized the Prius 2 ICE and reduced the size of the Power Split Device and other components. The biggest progress came from fitting the batteries and gas tank underneath the back seat. Génial.

Toyota is now scaling up its proven and very reliable HSD technology into mass production and will cash in on its early engagement. Its engeneers are working on new technology in the EV field (collabration with Tesla) and H2/EV.

Hyundai, Ford and soon VW will introduce more hybrids and Renault/Nissan put most of their efforts on EV with leasing exchangeable/plug-in batteries. GM indeed seems lagging behind to me.

 

Prius c has many Gen III technology such as beltless engine, exhaust heat recovery and cooled EGR, etc... Prius c transaxle is completely new. The P510 suggests it is a new generation from Gen III liftback P410. It has a better cooling mechanism that allows smaller and lighter packaging that future HSD would be utilizing. That had to be invented to fit into Prius c.

Prius c two motor transaxle's weight and size are also said to be about the same as one motor hybrid transaxle (probably referring to Insight IMA).

 

All but one of the links you provided are about the same Consumer Reports reliability survey apparently showing poor overall reliability for the hybrid Tahoe. I will have to see if there is more detailed information available about specific trouble areas or how the hybrid Tahoe survey compares with the regular Tahoe results.

Neither hybrid Tahoe in the Idaho National Labs report had any 2-mode transmission-related problems during long-term usage. One had some kind of engine problem that resulted in replacement under warranty. The other had its A/C compressor replaced due to a leak after a bit over 100,000 miles.

In contrast, each of the 4 2000-2001 Honda Insight and 2003 Honda Civic hybrids that had long-term maintenance records extending 100,000+ miles had transmission replacements prior to 100,000 miles and one had a second replacement at around 157,000 miles. The 2 civics also had $1,100 catalytic converters replaced at 100,000 miles.

 

We'll see if all the new hybrids coming out can make a bigger dent such that hybrids get more than 2.x% of total market share ....

The % share dropped a couple 10ths of percent last year and naysayers like to poke that hybrids are on the way down, that they're a joke or whatever....

But what's not a joke is Prius. #20 of all cars, trucks and SUV sold in year 2011.

I think the conventional thinking is if there were a bunch of Prius copies on the market, they share wouldn't grow. That may not be true.

Prius is selling. I'm seeing 2012 liftbacks with dealer plates just about daily.

One last thing, around here, liftback will still be sales king. Prius c is cool I'm sure, but people just don't buy subcompacts primarily. On the mainland, they like midsized cars the most. Hawaii might be so crowded that subcompacts are a blessing.

fyi, there is not 1 subcompact on the top 30 selling US vehicle list for 2011.

 

This thread looks lost. Why would anyone buy a GM made prius c instead of a toyota made one?

We ran the experiment before, and people chose to buy a toyota corola instead of a geo prism. Both cars were built on the same line in california. THe prius c has technology gm doesn't have, what chance would a gm version have?

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

GM should seek to build their own unique version of the liftback. Skip the c. c will not eclipse liftback sales in US. We like our midsize or near midsize cars. Subcompacts ... not as much. roads are too big.

Full suze pickups, true midsize sedans and CR-V .... all top sellers here. Compact sedans just behind. No subcompacts in top 30 sellers in US.

www.goodcarbadcar.net

 

It would be stupid for GM to copy and build a replica of Prius c.

When I think of Prius c from GM, I think of an affordable Volt that only has essential features that returns the most bang for the buck.

What kind of advancement can GM make to Voltec to achieve that? Will it be in a smaller car? Will everything need to scale down to fit? You get the drift.

 

But, compare the 04 and newer Toyota hybrids at Idaho National Labs to the Tahoe hybrids.

Ok. I've attached the reliability ratings that CR has. Unfortunately, they have insufficient data for 09-11 on the Tahoe Hybrid. I'm not surprised due to their poor sales and CR needing at least 100 responses for a given model year of vehicle to have sufficient data. Prius data is attached for comparison.

 

Fair enough...thanks..

 

Well, I think we pretty much knew the outcome of that comparison.... .... But thanks for posting the data tables!

A comparison with the 2001 Prius (or better, the 1997-1998 Prius) would be more interesting.

However, I don't think the data, such as it is, demonstrates that the 2-mode transmission is "very unreliable" versus an average small SUV or other vehicle with a similar duty cycle either as an architecture or in its implementation in the first batch of Tahoes.

 

Well, my post was about the two-mode SUVs themselves being unreliable. My original statement didn't include the transmission and I never brought it up.

Unfortunately, the 2001 Prius is too old now to show in CR's results. The NHW10 was never sold in the US and CR doesn't do reliability surveys for JDM cars, AFAIK, If they do, they sure don't list them in the US Consumer Reports magazine or web site.

 

But you did end that earlier post by saying:

I took that to mean that you were commenting on the reliability or utility of the two-mode design itself.

I'd really like to see GM introduce a fully competitive lower-cost one-mode transmission for small and mid-size cars. In the long-term I think they have to. E-Assist is nice, I guess, but it does seem pathetic compared to a full hybrid solution with a carefully paired engine which is the path that Ford and especially Toyota have been perfecting.

 

Totally. Ford is on the right path along with Toyota on the electrification strategy. They are working together on the full hybrid trucks now. Can't wait to find out the fruit that would come out of it. A-BAT production truck?