2012 Prius Plug-In Window Sticker

Yup, I agree that it is a f'up method. AER does not have to be continuous.

 

Well, the flip side of the goofy EPA sticker is that 29 kwh and 0.2 gallons of petrol for 100 miles sounds *damned* good, until you realize you better be able to charge up the battery 10 more times along the way

This is a good car for the John1701a's of the world, but I think sales will jump when the traction battery usable capacity doubles.

 

You have got two topics mixed up. 1) The time it takes for a full charge. 2) The benefit of multiple full charges per day.

1) Volt takes 10 hours while Prius PHV takes 3 hours for a full charge.

2) Prius PHV can be fully charged 3x a day and cover about the same EV miles as the Volt. The benefit is the cost of a smaller battery pack that doesn't take up a seat, push the car to SUV weight nor rob some gas MPG.

Volt couldn't fully recharge 3x a day since there is only 24 hours. Charging the Volt more than once a day would result in diminishing return.

 

I don't think the benefit is on "full charges a day" unless you are implying a severe negative effect of partial charging.


Lets take a look at my typical usage pattern:

1. Leave home with a full charge from overnight. drive 20 miles to work, arrive right now in winter temps with about 10 miles of EV remaining
2. Plug in at work (110v), charge from 8:30 to about 12:30, pick up about 16 miles of range [generally I get 4 miles per hour charging at 110v and 10 miles per hour charging at 240v]
3. Leave for lunch with 26 miles of range, drive maybe 5 miles then plug back in with around 21 miles of range showing
4. charge another 3.5 hours and for about another 10 miles of range, leave work at 5 with about showing 30 miles of range
5. drive the 20 miles home, arrive showing 10 miles of range left, plug in at 240v
I don't usually go out again, but by the time dinner is over I'd easily have 20 miles of range available again.

In that pattern I drove 45 miles and got home with 10 miles of range left and used no gas.

A pip would have burned gas for at least 18 miles of the 40 mile round trip in to work and home, despite the fact it would have a full charge when I left home and when I went out for lunch and when I drove home, the three "full" charges just wouldn't keep up. (and thats not counting that much of it is highway speeds in excess of 70 mph)

NOTE: I realize for my typical day a Leaf would be perfectly suited, its the atypical days I need the Volt for.

 

Prius PHV would give you 60% EV and 40% HV. 27 miles on electricity and 18 miles on gas. You get to exercise the gas engine so consider that engine and fuel maintenance.

Volt's battery is too big for you. PHEV20 is ideal for you, if you don't want to use gas on your daily commute. If you are okay using 0.36 gallon of gas a day, you can enjoy the other benefits Prius PHV offers - lower price, 50 MPG for long trips, midsize interior, 5 seater, etc... A tank of gas can last you a month.

You can even breakdown your commute into city and highway sections to optimize even more EV range and lower gas consumption. That'll be the fun of the EV<->HV button to hold the battery charge and ration it.

 

My goal is to burn less gas, so choosing to burn more on the highway runs seems counterintuitive.

Lets look at the atypical day, a drive to the courthouse in Wilmington:
1. Leave home with full charge, drive 50 miles to Wilmington, use up 30 miles of EV and 20 miles of gas.
2. Plug in at 110 v in courthouse parking lot (free)
3. Stay in court about 4 hours, pick up 16 miles of range.
4. Drive back to the office about 30 miles use 16 miles EV and 14 miles of gas.
5. Plug in at office for about 3 hours, pick up 12 miles of range
6. Drive home 20 miles, use 12 miles EV and 8 miles of gas.

Total drove 100 miles, a little more than I would be comfortable trying in a Leaf retying on public charging; 58 miles in EV and 42 miles in HV @ 37 mpg for about 1.1 gallons of gas consumed (and note that is real world numbers for the current range I am getting not the EPA range of 35 miles).

EPA says the pip would have done 33 of those miles in EV and 67 in HV (again not looking at the fact that much of it would be over 70 mph), and would consume .066 gallons in the EV and 1.34 gallons in HV or about 1.41 gallons total.

I do this about once a week, so in a typical week the Pip would burn 1.44 gallons more than the Volt on my normal commute (18 miles x 4 days) and .31 gallons more on the long trip or 1.75 gallons more gas consumed each week.

I fill up about every 8 gallons so I can follow this routine about 5 1/2 weeks in the Volt. Assuming I'd fill a PiP up about every 9 gallons, I'd have to fill up every 3 weeks in a Pip, so I'f be filling up more often and for more gallons (more than compensating in the difference between regular and premium).

I'm not knocking the Pip, I think it is an engineering marvel that many are going to love, its just not the choice for me with my preferences and goals.

 

Yup, totally understand and you are being open and constructive in the discussion.

You calculated the gas usage difference so here is the kWh difference. For your typical weekday, Volt would use 8.37 kWh more than Prius PHV (using EPA figures). 4 days is 33.48 kWh.

On your atypical trip, Volt would consume 11.31 kWh more. That's 44.8 kWh more total per week.

The difference is 44.79 kWh in electricity and 1.75 gallon of gas. The question is, if it is a good trade with many things to consider - size, car price, etc.

280 miles per week x 52 weeks = 14,560 miles a year. Is that all the miles you put? How about the remaining miles, like super long weekend trips?

With those miles counted so far, Volt would give you 85% EV and 15% HV. Prius PHV would give you 50% EV and 50% HV.

 

The Volt and the Prius PHV charge at about the same rate, 1hr = 3.75 miles. (My volt finishes a full charge in 9 not 10).

For me, and many others, its not possible to charge multiple times (no charging at work or doing wierd things like blocking blocks aways to find a place to charge. ) The only "Time" for charging is really about plugging it in. Charging 3x a day takes 3x as long in terms of plugging in or dealing with the hassels.

Volt on 240 can easily recharge in 4 hours (and could do many more per day). Wattsup, on voltstats.net drove 254.45 Miles EV miles in a day (both charging and driving). That is 6 or 7 charges + driving.



if someone can really plug in 3x a day and get down to 0 gas miles, then the Prius PHV is a better choice for them. The other items you list are, as before, generally irrelevant unless they make the users trip more enjoyable (space) or more efficient (long trip MPG). You will never win the argument that the Prius PHV is absolutely better. Its better for some people, but not for all.

 

Hey, the 6 AER is f'ed up, I would have thought it would be 0, because it couldn't finish the test. If you have a 10K race, and some guy is running 4 minute miles, but stops at half way, you don't say he won the 5K, you just say he dnf. The key number for the phv is 11 miles blended charge depletion range, blending in only 0.022 gallons of gasoline.

The prius motor is not weak, it is 60kw, but the rest of it limits it to 38kw in ev mode. If an oem like toyota gave it 30kwh, then they could easily upgrade the rest to get to 60 kw, but likely would need to change the psd to keep it all electric much over 100 km/h because of motor limitations. For your conversion, if its on a gen II you really are getting 25kw in ev mode, which means it will use more gas, but you can still come to a blended mode figure. Totally fair epa metrics.

 

AER is All Electric Range.
What part of "All" do you not understand?

 

Ok, that provides some insight. IOW, it may not be trivial to parse or add up the total electrical cost / energy consumed.

 

They haven't seperated out the city / highway for the PiP, but if like 3rd gen, then long trip (highway) would be 48.

Most consumers will opt for the larger car (interior) at the lower price.

 

Totally relevant. If Volt were a midsize, it would consume more electricity, cost more, use more gas, etc.

If all the miles are powered by the battery alone, it is AER. Why does it need to be continuous?

Volt doesn't have 35 miles continuous AER if the weather, engine or fuel maintenance mode interrupt it.

 

That's great, but are we going to have PiP and Volt owners track both? Is kWhs going to get swept under the carpet?

Can't say I've seen a PHV (ok Volt) owner say ..

Driven 2600 miles to date
pumped in 40 gallons total @ x USD
pumped in 600 kWhrs @ x USD .... for example.

Did I miss that?

 

Yes, check this out.

Prius PHV tracks the lifetime kWh and Gallons.

 

Thanks for the link. There are no oil refineries around the area. However, there is one oil-fired power plant and 3 Natural Gas power plant.

 

Thanks

EV: 17% 20mi 4Kwh HV: 83% 96mi 2G Saved: .3G

 

check my sig, tough its only the last 3 months because I was not tracking kw in the beginning. (I did start in September but did not track it well as my power metering had nto switched to help me track it)

 

Thanks, that's a great sig actually. I just plunked in $39 gas after 440 miles, so total cost of $56 for 2100 miles is really good. Fuelly's got me at $.078 / mile over 1600+ miles.

What's your avg. cost / kWh?

Volt is EPA's @ $1,000 / 15k mi, so

2011 mi ($1k / 15kmi) = $134 ...

How are you getting $134 EPA down to $56 actual???

 

All should be replaced with altogether...