Prius Plug-in vs Chevy-Volt thoughts

My comments on the whole battery size for maximum benefit / minimum cost analysis (while ignoring some implementation details to simplify things):

In terms of maximum fuel reduction benefit - for PHEVs you want people in the cars who fully deplete the battery in between charging opportunities. % fuel reduction per driver doesn't matter when we're talking about a limited amount of battery. For a PHEV15 (PiP) - the guy who drives 15 miles in between charges saves the same amount of fuel as the guy who drives 100 miles in between charges.

For PHEV40 (Volt) - you want someone who drives it empty in between charging opportunities - this typically means 40+ miles in between charges.

For EV (LEAF, iMiEV, etc) - you want someone who can drive it as close to empty as possible without draining it. This means that often the battery isn't fully utilized as there is no backup as evidenced by the average LEAF driver typically going around 35 miles between charges - but then again I know of a number of people going 60+ miles in between charges on a daily basis.
All of that assumes that you're dealing with a limited amount of battery.

In real life since batteries are expensive - I think the market will be pretty much self-adjusting. People won't tend to buy more battery capacity than they really need on a regular basis (unless they've got extra cash and really want to minimize their own gas consumption).

There have been arguments that incentives for PHEVs with their smaller battery packs should be larger in comparison to larger pack PHEVs and EVs since that will likely get more vehicles on the road that plug-in which will inherently mean more EV miles driven. Tough to argue against that given how expensive the least expensive PHEV is right now. Maybe if Toyota had some competition in the PHEV15 market...

 

That's when Volt's resale became tricky. It is hard to sell it to someone who drives 15 miles or less, which makes up the majority.

Prius PHV or C-Max Energi have the highest chance of becoming mainstream. They also has the lowest well to wheel emission because you have two energy sources and propulsion systems working together instead of against each other.

 

Glad you acknowledged the other data.

I think the variance is critical.. and why PHEVs will, for a while, be the choice over BEVs. Also why i think its great that there is a Prius PHV for those that have lots of very short tirps (+maybe a few very long trips) as well as the Volt for those like me with medium trips.

I agree with the comments that people will (or at least should) optimize a battery to be near their commute size. I would say it should be just greater (so that one avoids cold starts), but realistically once its close people will focus on other dimensions.


We need more choices to get people something they like. I salute those getting a PiP just as much those getting a Volt just as much as those getting a Leaf. If they are optimizing for their family's usage (or balancing that with other needs), and reducing gas its all good.


The variance says we need may range vehicles, each filling a different segment. The Volt does not need the PiP to fail, and the PiP does not really need to Volt to fail. Both can be reasonably successful in their own segment. (The higher price point on the Volt will limit its market impact but with time hopefully GM will bring it down, or roll the lessons into other cars). Us volt owners, however, are now committed so it does not matter personally.

 

Why do you always insist on bashing the Volt with every opportunity? It's really tiresome.

Again you are taking a narrow view and showing your bias. If you look at auto sales objectively, you'll quickly see that there's 3 types of cars which sell in large numbers (btw - how does one define mainstream?):

1. Pickup trucks
2. Sedans
3. Small SUVs

The Volt, PiP and C-Max fit into none of those categories. It's very likely that the first affordable, well designed plug-in that fits into one of those 3 categories will quickly go "mainstream".

Personally, I'd bet on a small SUV being the first - the Mitsubishi plug-in Outlander could be the first real entry into the segment.

From a "most likely to reduce gasoline consumption" perspective - I hope that a plug-in pickup goes mainstream - that's where the biggest opportunity for gasoline savings is.

 

You'll also quickly see that people who didn't actually use pickups as pickups are switching to cars... a sedan is a car, so not sure what that meant... and SUVs are becoming wagons, which Prius v is.

Mainstream has been defined as 5,000 per month (60,000 per year) minimum for sales. Less than that, production & profit struggle. More than that, you've got something to sustain business with.

Volt is clearly a niche with an uncertain path, especially with low sales despite the tax-credit. What will become of it? How will the design adapt to actually result in the higher sales needed?
.

 

Just making a point. The interpretation is from your end.

Prius sales were approaching the Corolla sales in Feb. Prius is projected to take over even the Camry sales soon. Prius (no-plug) is already mainstream (3rd best selling Toyota?) so the plugin version has the highest chance of becoming mainstream.

The price is the only sticking point. After the $2,500 tax credit, the Standard PHV costs less than the no-plug Prius liftback Five. However, the biggest sellers are Two and Three, $4k to $5k less. If Prius PHV qualifies for the same $7,500 as the Volt, the sales can reach mainstream level now.

Toyota can also decontent the PHV standard features to lower the price even further. The current Standard trim is highly loaded.

I don't think a small SUV plugin will take off. The battery required would be larger and so would be the cost. The recharge time would go off the roof. Forget about L1 charger. L2 and L3 would become a requirement.

Ford doesn't think so, and killed off the Escape hybrid without no future of the plugin version. Instead, the C-Max Energi would be replacing it.

 

I think what will be needed in a truck or SUV size plug in is a realization that it is not about AER. They'll need to have an ICE running almost all the time for heavier duty driving/towing, but if they blended a grid charge in over a long period as an efficiency boost, instead of trying to provide EV range, I think it would be a huge improvement.

 

I expect the basic EV design to stay the same and just ride the battery tech and pricing improvements over the coming decade.

Other designs like the PiP and future Cruze plugin will have a blended design with smaller packs to fill the lower price point in the product design space.

 

Toyota Rav4 was a "popular" last generation EV and the modern version is being updated as a full EV by Tesla now (who are doing Model X themselves).

I looked at fueleconomy.gov and small SUVs like the regular Ford Escape or even the slightly larger Toyota Highlander are 15-30% worse mpg overall than many conventional sedans. Batteries are improving in price and capacity at 6-8% per year so that difference should be easily accomodated over the next few years. Plugin PHEV small SUVs seem entirely doable.

Even at L1 charging you would still get 20-25 miles during a 10 hour recharge overnight at home plus whatever you might pick up during the day at 240V at work or other locations.

 

IF I was in the market for a new car, Past experience with car manufacturers would lead me to the PiP.

I have owned 3 different GM vehicles in the past and around 75-85k miles, I am starting to put money into them to keep them on the road...

I have Owned 3 Toyota vehicles. 1st was totaled at 157,xxx miles with no problems. Camry with 165,xxx miles still purring like a kitten and no issues at all! Then my prius.

My parents have owned Toyota vehicles for over 15yrs. All of them have had over 200,000miles on them before they traded them in on a new one.

I love the EV range on the volt, and the high tech looking displays. I also love the cockpit feel.

But for me, it is all about reliability. And based on my past dealings with GM, Volt is out in my book.

 

I test drove the volt... I really enjoyed the car... the lack of backseat room and price overall were the major negatives for me..

 

Volt was not designed for the US. It is more suitable for Japan or Europe where people are used to smaller cars due to the fuel price.

Even the Prius c has more rear legroom than the Volt with half the price. Such basic needs are more important than all electric continuous range or all electric speed.

 

Upon test driving the Volt, I liked it. It was solid, accelerated briskly and
felt a bit more like an entry level luxury car. I had a Gen II at the time
but was preparing for another car for the family.

I was thinking about getting the volt UNTIL we started talking about price.

I didn't like the greed and arrogance of my local Chevy dealer. There was
supposed to be a 4-6K rebate from the purchase of the Volt, but alas, the
dealer was charging 4-5K OVER the MSRP. When I asked the dealer why
such a high mark up, they (meaning the salesman and manager) said that
the volts will fly off these lots. Someone has to get the rebate!

Five months later, I smile and wave at that Chevy dealer in my new Lexus CT.

 

If you don't want a volt, don't buy one. But please stop making up crap that makes no sense.

You have no idea what it was designed for and based on this you are clearly not qualified to even comment on it. Your guessing is just stilly. Do you just sit around and make up stuff about the Volt in an attempt to bash a car that is way better in many important dimensions than your beloved Prius. If the Volt was designed for Japan or EU, they would have launched the car there. The Volt was designed for the US, where power and comfort matter.

I would agree for those people that buy cars based on back-seat roominess, they choose something other than a Volt.

The Prius c is a nice little econobox and will sell well. So do McDonalads burgers, but that does not make them better quality food or better for the environment.

For their owners, the Volt and Leaf are investments in technology to help shape the future and reduce gas consumption.

People that are interested in technology and reducing gas consumption may choose the Volt.

 

I would have seriously thought of buying one - it was the dealers greed. May I ask what you paid for your volt and did you have to pay a dealer mark up?

 

Although not the person you asked, we leased. The vehicle price was based on MSRP, no premium.

You stumbled on one of the big issues GM, in my opinion, has. Dealers.
If you had contacted a Volt advisor (# used to be on Chevys web site, not sure if it still is) they could have guided you to a dealer offering Volts at, or below, MSRP.

In general, I don't like GM dealers. It was the biggest hurdle to our lease of a Volt. But we are very happy that we leased one.

 

From what I can gather, the three primary reasons given for not buying a Volt have been:

1. Price
2. GM's reliability reputation
3. Packaging (rear seat room)

If these three criteria improve, like the Prius, the most likely scenario is that it won't be the 1st generation Volt that makes the big splash, but an improved, 2nd generation version.

It's worth noting that the Prius' price, while relatively exhorbitant when originally introduced, hasn't fluctuated much over its lifetime. Of course, past tax incentives have helped greatly, too.

So GM doesn't really need to lower the price of the Volt (although it would certainly help). They just need to keep it at the same place for the future, improved versions.

 

I bought while supply did not exist in my state. Dealers were looking for 5K over MSRP or order one and 7K for the ones they had on the lot (They traded with dealers in other states to get them early). I use the Volt advisor team to locate exactly what I wanted and drove my old car ~900 miles to trade it in on my Volt. (We made it a multi-day road trip vacation which was fun). A month ago, same dealer that wanted to go over 5K is now selling at or below MSRP on new orders.. supply and demand. One of my neighbors just bought one for 2K below MSRP (but it was not his ideal color).

My car was 43,200 MSRP, I paid 500 less than MSRP, with 0 dealer prep or paperwork fees. I will claim the full 7500 US tax credit, and the 6000 Colorado State tax credit. State taxes and such are were about 4K, so my 43K Volt, net cost including taxes and registration was about 33K. (The dealer also gave me 2000 Trade in on my 1995 Honda, sight unseen (bluebook was 1700), saying if I was going to drive it there it must be in good shape).

Volt Advisor Trevor
(877) 486-5846
[email protected]

Look like you may be in canada.. ou might find one accross the boarder and drive it back.
Frankydude on gm-volt.com did. Even convinced his US dealer to take Buy it and then sell it to him so the dealer could claim the US tax credit.

 

That is the very reason I asked repeatedly prior to Volt rollout: "Who is the market for Volt?"

The answer changed abruptly upon rollout itself, but was clear.

Recently, the need to ask it has come up again... now that we know sales will be low for the foreseeable future and gas prices are climbing into unknown territory. Who? When? Why?

Obviously, the rollout of PHV will be having an influence when real-world data becomes readily available from a variety of sources.
.

 

This is great information. I think if the actual bottom-line price was more widely known, a lot of the whining about the cost of the Volt would go away.

Of course, you'll still hear complaints about how GM needs to (a) sell it at a lower price, (b) make it a tad more fuel efficient, and (c) make it a bit roomier, but what car wouldn't be better with those improvements?