Prius C outsells Volt, Nissan in 3 days

Interesting new way of defining average: some are above but many are below...
Maybe you meant to say that in your opinion there are few Volts in dirtier states and many in cleaner states... then you should have said so.

Prius c is a car for all states.

 

Purchase priorities are quite relevant.

A quick check of the computer industry clearly confirms the most "advanced" technology does not equate to the most sales.
.

 

Well, actually, what computer and most industries have shown is the problem with Early adoption is that there is rarely anything out for the newer technologies until later on. People have been burned a lot by devices like the Video Cassette Recorder, as there was the VHS and Beta standard. Beta was clearly better, but VHS won due to it being cheap and various industries just making use of it.

People were all on the fence about DVDs until DVDs got settled, same with the DVD Writers and now the HD vs Bluray DVDs until the last few years when Bluray finally won.

While people can cite the iPod and such as a 'new technology adopted rather quickly', here's the thing about that... There was at least 3 companies pushing out MP3 based players prior to Apple. Prior to that, the MP3 was used mostly by underground computer users to share music, hardly known by the population at hand as well as the Internet until around say 1995-1996 (Internet has been around since the 80s, but only known to some people at that time)

As a whole, consumers tend to take things slow unless you are more saavy or willing to spend the money to 'take a chance', but most consumers will not 'take a chance' as early adoption often comes with trials and tribulations and sometimes 'waste of money' because such things sometimes flops (IE: HP WebOS tablets as an example) Although in the case of HP WebOS, it was difficult to convince people to buy it and just the lack of apps to make it successful with Android and iOS apps literally making it difficult. RIM's Playbook is also suffering in that level, even with the android emulation support and not sure how well MS is doing with their Windows phone, but this would be their 3rd or 4th try into this venture.

 

Not I was not defining average, as average is not relevant to an individuals car purchase. I don't charge a bit in every state, I charge at home.

I said what I meant, the c produces only in GHG in some states and only then when the owner does not purchase renewables. Anyone that wants to reduce their GHG can reduce it more via a EREV or BEV, with the appropriate choice of energy source.

As I pointed out before (see
http://priuschat.com/forums/chevrol...nsider-chevy-volt-instead-19.html#post1472345
and http://priuschat.com/forums/chevrol...nsider-chevy-volt-instead-20.html#post1472546
The sates with high hybrid sales (absolute as well as percentages) also generally have much less GHG in their grid, so those people don't need to do anything but plug in to reduce GHG. Those, like me, in coal-burning states need to take the extra step to buy green energy. But green electricity for me is still way cheaper than gas.

 

I view *EVs through a prism of oil conservation for society. In that light HEV wipes the floor with every other EV variant, simply because volume of sales are so much higher.

That does not make a HEV technologically superior, but it does point to the much greater value.

 

I can see the prisim of oil conservation for society. But looking at lots of people buying medium tech is not really a greater value than finding ways to get them to buy tech that saves more. With that logic, saving a few MPG in trucks and SUVs is even more important as there are more of them sold. Was H3 was a great advance because it was a 30-40% more efficient hummer?

I view HV's in terms of Jevson's paradox and see it in many posts here. People posting they love their prius because they commute 120miles a day. The efficency of the prius lets them do that, but is it really saving gas? Jevons' paradox (sometimes Jevons effect) is the proposition that technological progress that increases the efficiency with which a resource is used, tends to increase (rather than decrease) the rate of consumption of that resource. As we have seen increased fuel efficiency in HVs, I see more people just willing to drive them farther.

I'm glad we have HVs and for some people they may even be the best tech we have now, but just because there are more of them does not make of greater value. Its not even clear how much they are saving gas, maybe it is just increasing mobility for a fixed amount of gas.


The point of an EV is to switch away from the finite gas resource and move to sources of fuel that can be renewable. As that switch hapens Jevon's effect does not have as negative an impact, as we are switching to a renewable fuel source, so using more of it is not an issue.

 

what? so you are trying to say that Prius doesnt save enviroment compared to any other car because hey who knows, maybe its drivers are driving more because it gets better mpg? what is this based on, imagination, dreams, wishes? Hey maybe all Prii will explode at 12.12.12, right?

But EV's save enviroment because fuel "CAN BE" renewable, even though it is actually not even mostly made from renewable source, especially in the USA?

what?

California produces only 14% of their electricity from renewable sources. What are you even talking about? Considering how much electricity is generated by coal, you might actually be killing your neighbors with EV vehicle.

 

The data on increase driving by hybrids drivers is not mine, its been in multiple studies, e.g. Hybrids: Is a Little of the Green Rubbing Off?
with hybrid drivers doing 25% more,
though high-efficiency diesel owners do even more.


To make the TCO for a hyrbid work financially, one has to drive above average number of miles. While some people buy a hyrbid for the environmental, many others do it for the green cash they can save over the years as they drive long distances.


I would agree buying an EV and not ging the extra mile to buy renewable energy is as "green" with respect to carbon, though less of an issue if the finite resource is foreign oil. But I get that choice and at the same time can still have a viable TCO model. My common

 

The TCO also works out if

the car is kept longer;
or if the depreciation is lower;
or reliability is better

 

I don't buy your argument because the larger majority of truck and SUV purchases are elastic decisions. Have you noticed the groundswell of Prius purchases recently from people who had been driving gas guzzlers ? They thought they wanted or needed a guzzler, but higher fuel prices changed their opinion.

Look at Europe: high fuel prices do not translate into super efficient big cars, they manifest as small cars.

 

I drive my Prius where I need to go, same as I have with all the cars I've owned. I've never taken an unnecessary trip just because I'm driving a hybrid, it would still be a waste and an expense!

 

I have not seen data on such a groundswell.

But if they were to switch to a Prius from a Truck, that would be very good.

Yes, costs impact people's decisions but and that has nothing to do with hybrids. In fact most of the efficient small cars are not hybrids.
Hybrids such as the Toyota Prius. Hybrids enjoy a 2.3 percent market share in the U.S., while in Europe it is still only 0.5 percent.

 

Well, I think people switch to small cars because the cost of a small car is inherently cheaper than a hybrid. Most also think the same thing as some of the naysayers about hybrids... After all, their exposure to the battery concept is consumer electronics, where you do go through a battery either within a few months to a year and given the rechargable battery pack is the most expensive part of any system...

I think the other thing to consider is also the cities in where some of the cars are. After all, some of the older cities will be more likely to be happy with compact cars than hybrids at 'regular' size. I know from back when I went to Europe, in the 80s, some of the more older cities, not the modernized older cities, would have rather thin streets.

 

The point I am trying to make is that more fuel economical gas guzzlers does not play out in real life, because most people simply downsize in one form or another.

 

actually that data shows to me that people who drive a lot of miles, buy hybrids because they are more efficient.

 

most efficient cars are hybrids.


it is sometimes very hard to understand your arguments.

are you suggesting that hybrids are bad because they are not purchased by 96.8% of the population? (3.2% is latest number btw)?

Most of your arguments are really hopes that american manufacturers do better than Toyota, at least thats what it seems to me... since we go back and forth about silly things in thread about Prius c, and there is always a new argument that has nothing to do with this but trying to downplay importance of toyota hybrids.

well Hybrids will never become 50% of sales unless other manufacturers sell them.

but when it comes to Toyota, they will sell over 10% of hybrids this year and thats 1.1 million cars.

those numbers are highly impressive no matter how you try to spin it. Next year, Toyota will probably sell more hybrids than BMW will cars.. or Mazda... or Mercedes. Still not goon enough?

It seems silly to complain about hybrids being small part of the market, with Toyota selling 1.1 million, and at the same time glorifying Volt which is abysmal sales failure that is currently not even being produced . "Hey Prius sold only 100x more than Volt, its sales suck. Volt is awesome".

 

Could be that this paradox is working on you? (increasing mobility for a fixed amount of dollars).

With your Volt, what is your average MPG on gas (CS mode MPG) BTW?

 

The trend to efficiency in the USA is driven by the rising cost of fuel. Commuting makes up a large proportion of personal miles so I can only see a downward trend in gasoline consumption. Long-distance commuting is an historical issue previously enabled by low gasoline prices.

There are also other key underlying cost increases that mean disposable incomes are largely decreasing so even if savings on fuel economy offset the increased cost of fuel and cars gasoline consumption will continue to decrease.

If efficiency were increasing without counterbalancing rising costs then, yes, it would lead to increased use.

 

I was responding to SageBrush's comment to look at EU to see the gas prices impacted reduced SUV/Truck usage and the shift to more efficient smaller cars. To which i responded that in EU hybrid use is even smaller there and most of their fuel efficient small cars are NOT hybrids.

When fact challenges your beliefs, its often much harder to understand the arguments.

No I'm not suggesting hybrids are bad because they are only purchased by 3.2%. Overall sales to hybrid sales are not a statement about quality. But using the Prius C sales to say the volt is a bad or failure is no more valid than saying that the hybrids, at 3%, are bad and a failure. I was trying to use parallel logical construction to show some people here the error of their assertion. A construct that says the prius is bad or a failure is more likely to get them to see the error of the logic than just stating its too early to draw a conclusion on the Volt.

 

Since I have shifted the source of the majority of my transportation power from non-new petroleum to renewal electricity, it sidesteps the paradox at one level. But since it does impact my gas efficiency it could apply. I expect to use 50-60 gallons of petrol per year for road trips. I believe the volt has made more likely to avoid road trips, not more likely as it has increase my desire for efficiency. E.g. today's trip to denver will be on pubic transportation.. (also don't want to risk my Volt traveling a snowy/icy day), so I'll trade the 45-60min time penalty and 1mile walk in the snow to take public transport to my destination.

My voltstats.net reported MPG_CS is 35.78, but my computed is 38.8. The difference is because
1) I use mountain mode games a bit on highway driving so the reported MPG_CS is considering gas burned over fewer miles. I use MM on some sections to increase the amount of batter charge so I can drive EV at my destination. If you charge with MM and then turn off the car, when you turn it back on, the battery miles become EV miles. In varous tests I found MM games allows me to get slightly higher actual MPG_CS, and allow me to be more gas free when in downtown or low-speed at the airport.
2) Because of the limited data automatically reported by the car, there is some errors in how voltstats.net computes. For example it consider my car to have burned 44.5 gallons but there has never even been that many gallons in the car, let alone burned. (I've about gallon left and, counting the dealer's gas have only put in 44 gallons total).

I was doing better before the winter (was over 40mpg back in october), but the winter ERDTLT and "maintenance runs" and a few medium trips (70 miles or so) has reduced that a a bit. Since october my MPG_CS has been about 34.4mpg over 267 CS miles. (241 CS miles reported by car, with 26 miles of MM game miles). One road trip this summer should bring it back up .