NADA: New cafe rules price people out of market.

+1.
I'm not trying to piss in anybody's potted palm plant here, but I'm simply trying to keep numbers realistic. Every time I read a third-grader style back and forth about TCOs, somebody starts screaming about how automobile manufacturers are inflating fuel economies by publishing only the highway number.
That's not really a cool thing to do...well, unless you're selling the car to me since I always get at least the rated highway MPG, and I'm smart enough to do stare and compares for myself.

Whether we like it or not...and yes, I know there are days that we both do not, I'm associated with the Prius community by the fact that I drive one down here in the Redneck Riviera---a place that you see fewer Priuses than you do on the left coast. Similarly....many of my friends think that I'm a bed-wetting, sun gazing, tree hugging, liberal (which I am certainly not) and so when people start getting all tempted to play fast and loose with numbers......it makes my antennae twitch.

The "C" model Prius is a good car if somebody wants to pay about 21-25 kilobucks for a Yaris sized car that gets an average of 50-something miles to the gallon, and they're willing to put their money where their beliefs lie, or they're in a situation where they'll break even on the hybrid premium, or they just think that it's cool to roll a Prius.
That's it.
That should be good enough!
There's no reason to say that it's more or less than it really is.

I don't have any stick time with this car, and I'm not an automotive engineer. I don’t play one on TV. From my very limited knowledge of the car, they "might" have realized most of the MPG gains with this subtype over the full sized Prius if they would have put the G3’s mill into the C. They "might" have benefited from reduced engineering costs by not having to scale the HSD down, and they would have had a car that's much more fun to drive. Again....I don't have any time in type! You might not be able to easily stuff a G3's HSD plant into a Yaris. I do not know.

I do know two things pretty much for sure.
They aren't >$20K, and they won't be for a while---if ever. Toyota dealerships in this area are HORRIBLE(!!) about mandatory “options†(which is kinda like “friendly†fire), huge “Doc†fees, and being less than willing to negotiate. Make sure that when you get a quote---a HARD quote, that it’s an OTD quote!!!
And.....they usually don't get 60-mpg. According to the reports from the 20 some odd drivers that report to fuelly.com, the average is something like 50.1, which I for one find to be disappointing since you can pay a few thou more and get a G3, and you'll only loose a few MPG, according to the same data from Fuelly.

Like I said before....I’m not dumping on the ‘baby’ Prius. If you're a young driver and you're looking for an entry level (and non-mild) hybrid---it SHOULD be good enough and they are selling them as fast as they can get them over here!!!




Sorry....rant over!
Look at it as practice for when the next “Hybrids aren’t really cost effective argument†that you get into.

 

e10 has 3.3% less energy in it per gallon than e0. That is the difference you should see.

 

What "beliefs" do you think would prompt someone to pay $3K more for Prius C over a Yaris?

 

Right. We should subsidize diesel oil here in the U.S. to the extent the EU does ... that'd be real proactive / forward thinking.

 

Not to mention the added price. Why can't people understand this crucial point? Payback period increases significantly when you add $8k to the price of a car that is trying to compete with the Prius at 50mpg. It's known as hitting a point of diminishing returns.

 

Good reason to increase the tax credit for electric vehicles, EV and hybrid. Even a straight up Prius doesn't have a real payback. Take away oil's $4B year in tax subsidies and apply it to technology that will lower US oil use.

That would be a $10,000 tax credit for 400,000 vehicles. We need to push the curve more on high mileage technology, its application and its results of cutting oil use, cutting pollution.

 

Get rid of subsidies and credits period. They are inefficient, and lead to lobbying (read: corruption) and bureaucracy.

Just tax externalized costs, and people will wise up.

 

Increase tax credits and subsidies. They lead to technological innovation, new jobs and industry, sustainable economy, greater energy efficiency, less oil use, less trade deficit, greater US national security.

The car you drive, the computer you are typing on, the internet you use are good examples.

The problems you mention are not due to smart government policy of subsidizing good things for a better future, that has been a hallmark of US government since Washington who pushed it from the beginning as key function of government.

The problem is when government policy is corrupted by campaign finance laws in the US that legalizes bribes to elected officials by corporations and gives corporations "citizenship".

Specific to this topic, a $10K subsidy for high mileage vehicles using innovative technology providing jobs and industry addresses the fake issue raised by NADA/US auto manufacturers of high mileage cares pricing people out of the car market.

 

You can tax the externalized costs, but at most, you just drive up the local economy burden in the process. Don't forget, as transportation costs go up, so does the cost of living in general. That will generate people to complain more about the situation and we go back into the circular issue of what would be beneficial.

The problem I see, and part of my argument in two other threads is that Gas is very convenient. But when you look at the Alt Fuel possibilities or even the Plugin abilities, you only know of a few or none of the other places to 'get' the alt fuel alternatives. While a Plugin/Electrical option can take advantage of hooking to the power grid via home or using Off-grid Solar Panels/Windmill/whatever, the convenience is limited by the range of where you can charge. Your other options is only going to where you can plug in and get the most out your time there, but again, if those locations are non-existent or not in a convenient place, it does not give you incentive to look at that car.

 

My answer is two-fold:

First, the costs are what they are. There is only harm in hiding them or pushing them on to other communities or generations.

Second, while I agree that the immediate result will be more expensive goods and services, the longer term effect will be widespread conservation and much less secondary costs like oil wars and military burden. Moreover, putting a stop to petrodollar bleed is worth about 300B a year that stays in local economies.

Phrased simply: Today my neighbor buys an SUV, and I buy a Prius. He exports three times the petrodollars I do, and forces both of us to pay for military and wars. Notice that he spent more for his SUV, than I did for the Prius. So while he might grumble about driving a Prius because he cannot now 'afford' an SUV, his pocket, and our community, is richer for the change.

 

If the range of the charge is 50 miles on a hybrid, it covers 90% of people's driving. So eliminating the oil use on one end of the equation and promoting clean electrical energy on the other end of the equation.

Both worth subsidizing for the benefit of the nation. Same with promoting hydrogen economy technology.

 

@ ETC- Sorry, I read your post backwards, you said show me one under 20k...yeah, no chance of that while they are hot.

@ Sage-

No black smoke, no horrible sound, barely a sound at all and this is in a 200mph plus race-car.

 

Where exactly do you think the money for the diesel subsidy is coming from ?

 

That's only a might. A couple of studies have shown that miles per btu does not stay constant with increasing concentrations of ethanol in gas. Fuel efficiency goes down, but at a slower rate then the dropping btu would suggest.

Many report seeing that 3% difference with E10, but it is possible with variances in driving styles and car models, some won't see it.

 

I thought your right-wing rags teach you that deficit spending is unsustainable.