NADA: New cafe rules price people out of market.

I didn't put beliefs in quotes. You did....and a base model Yaris has a $14,100 MSRP. A base model Prius "C" has an MSRP of $18,900.
Yeah I know.....good luck getting either car at those prices...but that's a difference of like, 4800. Not 3,000.
The beliefs are the business of the driver, but my personal opinion is that some actually believe that driving Priuses instead of Corollas is saving the planet, or would save the planet if everybody drove one.
Others are posers...or people that want to "appear" to be wanting to save the planet.
Whatever. That's their business.
MY interest in this is that I believe that people should be driving more fuel efficient vehicles, and recycling more and all of that.
Hypocrisy, exaggeration, proselytizing, harassment all piss me off for the very selfish reason that they make me look bad by association.
They also make the 99-percenters out there roll their eyes and compare the latest green miscreant to the antics of Jerry Falwell....and sooner or later that's going to matter.

Subsidies are stupid, and they're wrong.
All of them.
Period.
I've seen people in this very forum scream about oil subsidies, corn subsidies, and then (with their other face) bitch that there aren't enough incentives to prop up EVs and renewables.
IMHO...the purpose of the tax code is to generate money to run the government. Period.
This means (to me) that all exemptions, deductions, credits, deferments, and all of the other daffy crap in the tax code should be eliminated, and a simplified, progressive tax code should replace it.
501(c)3's should go away.
All of them.

The government can (and is) getting a lot more traction on the whole green vehicle thing by doing the one thing that they are good at, and for which they are authorized. Regulation.
Current CAFE standards are either ridiculously low or cripplingly high depending on whether you're talking to a cooky conservative or a wild-eyed liberal....which probably means that they're mostly where they need to be. And you know what??? It doesn't cost much to write and enact a regulation.
The automobile industry is already endeavoring to meet future CAFE regulations...and they're not going to "price people out of the market."
No people. No market.

 

Both are already taxed, and I said "simplified and progressive"...not necessarily "income".

You'll never get progressives or conservatives to go for a simple tax code, since they'll loose their ability to push people around legislatively.

 

What? The USA has sufficient renewable resources to meet electricity needs. What it doesn't have is a population that will make it happen.

 

I wouldn't say 90%, Prox... I would say 70%. There is still trucks that will do more than just 50mi. Also, the Leaf's best range is 100mi, that would be a 50 mi round trip and that assumes perfect conditions. The more realistic range is closer to 70mi, which means your return range would be 35mi, not 50mi. This is also on the belief that you don't recharge partially while at the halfway point due to a lack of infrastructure support.

 

I tried to match them up vs. features, a base C has more stuff than a base Yaris so it looked like feature for feature a $3K difference. The dollar amount is not that important.

I was more interested in your comment that the purchase of high mileage car was based on "beliefs" vs. economics and I was curious what you felt those beliefs were that motivated a purchase of a high mileage car.

Makes sense to me, that's why I drive a Prius.

I think you mean the 1 per centers, the 99 per centers are more into saving planet etc.

Hey...hey...easy on the proselytizing there.

George Washington and some other guys thought different but that's OK. Taxes are excellent way to modify behavior to match goals. Tax credits to encourage the planet saving behavior that can't quite pay for itself now but by the time it can, disaster has struck.

Gas taxes to pay for mass transit, finance oil wars, alternative energy, tax credits for Volt's and Leafs and Tesla's, for home energy savings.

Very true. Direct regulation works even better but many people say the same about direct regulation as you say about subsidies and with very similar...ahem...enthusiasm.

I'm for whatever works to cut oil use, save country, save the planet. Do both.

PS I won't tell anyone but you are 100% tree hugger...all that save the planet jazz.

 

You talk'in to me? Are YOU talk'in to ME?

Good idea to quote the person/point you are replying to.

On the 90% of driving covered by a 50 mile range. If people's daily commute average is 24 miles round trip that's 70% of driving. If their daily stuff is short trips, that's another 20%. The drive to the beach for vacation etc. is likely just 10%. I think that is basic stats on US driving habits.

So 90% of driving would be in electric mode, gas use reduced by 90% for 90% of people.

 

i guess that would be & million MORE? people out of the new car market.

average price paid for a new car in March 2012 was more than $29,000.

they only represent ~ 20% of the automotive market. with the 7 million out of the game, it will change to what?? 17%?

but that is basic BS anyway. i can say or predict anything i want especially when it wont happen for another 13 years.

what if... oh never mind, there is a million "what ifs" that might put 70 Million out of the new car market that far ahead.

who predicted the new car market would drop 20 million units in 2009??

or that the US of A would lose 5 trillion dollars in a few weeks?

so what can i say? sure lets talk about it. its gonna happen and we cant stop it nor should we.

 

The average age of a car is 10.8 years. They are projecting just under 15 million car sales this year, with this aging fleet. Many can not afford a new car, the bump to 15 million is partially because of easier credit to qualify for a car loan. If you look at the biggest regulatory costs on today's cars its safety. The newest cost that will keep people out of cars is a back up camera. IMHO we have too many safety regulations, and if we are worried about affordability we can cut here first. Do we really need 10 air bags and a back up camera more than good fuel economy?

If stricter cafe rules were put in, in the 1990s, then its likely gm and ford would have had more fuel efficient cars and would have been hurt less by the collapse in SUVs and CUVs. We don't know the future, but GM and Ford are on board with this, it seems NADA is out of touch.

 

Prox, it is implied talking to you when using the name as well as quoting.

And again, I know people who travel more than 24mi one way for a round trip, I was one of them. There are several others who cannot live as close either, such as Los Angeles is a good example.

 

These are the same automakers who bankrupted themselves by refusing to build fuel-efficient vehicles for the past two decades. Obama may very well be saving their industry. Again.

 

Certainly the CAFE standards have pushed US car manufacturers and staved off their demise but we are down to two and I don't think GM is going to make it.

They both needed to come out with a hybrid lineup competitive with Toyota and build on it. GM went nutty and did the Volt which was never going to be a mass production vehicle instead of building a line up of hybrids.

Ford had the Escape and the Fusion, now just down to the Fusion. No Focus or Fiesta hybrids which should have been out for years and competing mpg for mpg with the Prius lineup. Ford killed the Escape which competed well with the Lexus RX450h and Highlander Hybrid.

The CAFE standards are good but 10-20 years too low to save US car mfg.s from themselves.

In 2015, who will have my 50 mile EV, AWD, 50 mpg cruiser? Probably Lexus with RX450h evolution. Maybe the Volvo V60 if they get EPA permitting for the Diesel. Maybe Tesla Model X. But all those folks are way beyond the CAFE standards that GM and Ford are fighting against or watering down.

 

Fiesta has been out a year here and the new Focus is new this year. Next year they will have ECOboost options that will feature near hybrid performance.

Focus EV will "compete" with other EVs in the market.

The new Fusion hybrid will compete or exceed the Camry
The new Fusion plug-in will be in a class of it's own (no Camry plug in or other large mass-produced)
The C-max hybrid will supposedly reach Prius levels
The C-max plug-in will compete with the plug-in Prius

The Ford/Toyota truck partnership could produce a truck/SUV that exceeds both the HH and the Escape.

Escape is probably getting an ecoboost as well that will be near hybrid capability.

 

None are hybrids. At 33 mpg combined for Fiesta, none come close to 50 mpg combined.

EVs are nice but niche.

Neither are available now while Toyota is building multiple vehicle brand out of Prius.

I'm a buy American if I can. Why I bought the Escape Hybrid not Highlander/Lexus. But three years after I did that, Ford had nothing for me to move up to in terms of mileage. Three years!

Ford buying Toyota equipment, as it did for the Escape, is not viable, at least for Ford.

Bottom line, US car manufacturers, are following the same path that has lead them to bankruptcy and irrelevancy in their own home market. Fighting CAFE standards, safety standards are examples of the business practice has produced these bad results.

 

I doubt the Ecoboost setups will compete with hybrids unless you compare them to mild hybrids or poorly designed ones. The city mpg still drops significantly with the ecoboost trucks/SUVs. Have you ever spent any time at the Ford forums?

 

Isn't the catalytic converter the biggest regulatory cost item?

No environmental or safety regulation ever priced anyone out of a car. This is an ideology with no basis in fact. Demonstrated, once again, by the US auto industry and NADA in this latest go round.

Detroit's entire marketing scheme is based on add ons and up selling. It's why you can never really find that base price car because they add on the options. All of which cost the buyer more than any of the safety or mileage regs.

Same with small fuel efficient cars. Detroit never made them with all kinds of hokey claims so Germany and Japan did and US car mfgs. are now dinosaurs hanging around after the German and Japanese "meteors" hit. Korean meteor adding to their demise.

Nothing to do with regulations.

Everything to do with resistance to change, resistance to new technology, resistance to safety and fuel efficiency.

So let us leave the fiction of "regulations" pricing people out of cars to the recently departed "decades of greed".

 

I spend time at Fiesta Faction. I also daily drive a Fiesta on 80% city conditions and average 33mpg. The two highway trips I have taken have netted me 38mpg.

Lola (Ford Fiesta) | Fuelly

This is with the 1.6l 4cyl. The 1.0l turbo 3 will exceed these numbers significantly.

If 50mpg for Prius is over 70 for CAFE then a 33mpg Fiesta will surely meet 50mpg CAFE.