NADA: New cafe rules price people out of market.

Catalytic converters were a high cost item in the 70s. Its 2012, prices have dropped a great deal. Emissions control do add to the price of the cars though. Its a question of balance. Reducing some of the safety requirements would mean cars could more easily be world cars without a different cheaper version in Europe. Regulation does price many out of cars today.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler are for the 2025 standards as are BMW, Mercedes, etc. Technology has moved ahead to allow for higher fuel economy. VW and Toyota are the only manufacturers that vocally disented from the higher standards, and it was because they wanted special rules that favored them. NADA is the auto dealers association. The dealers disagree with the manufacturers and the government.

I've ridden in stripped cars. They are still expensive.

sonic and cruze, focus and fiesta. Fiat Chrysler is making the fiat 500. They are all making small cars.

Again the US car manufacturers all are in favor of the new cafe rules because it gives them the proper time to change. This was put out by the dealer association that want to continue to sell large SUVs without government regulation The car market will likely be smaller in 2025 and will need fewer dealers. The car manufacturers are gearing up to be able to profitable in those days.

 

It is, which is why Ford cancelled the hybrid. They felt with the new C-max hybrids, with a higher than Escape hybrid mpg, coming out this year, the only people buying the Escape are those that want AWD. Which isn't enough to justify diverting resources from the C-max and Fusion.

Ford did not by buy Toyota equipment. They used Aisin as a supplier, which is a part supplier to more than Toyota. Because of suspect favoritism to Toyota, Ford has moved their hybrid parts supply in house for the new hybrids.

The Explorer with the 2.0 ecoboost is rated the same as the Highlander hybrid on the highway. It appears to be getting an official tow rating this year. I believe Ford was just being cautious with the first year of introduction in that regard.

AWD isn't an option with the 2.0. Whether AWD is or isn't a worthy feature is a separate discussion, but based on the difference between the V6 Explorer and Lexus highlander FWD and AWD models, it's only a 1 to 2 mpg difference. The Explorer does have 10 more cubic feet of cargo space.

City economy of the Explorer is 5 lower at 23mpg. A straight ICE just can't match all the benefits of a hybrid system. It can gain some of them. Ford is offering auto start/stop as an option on all the 2013 Fusion ICEs, and is only charging $295 for it. Such systems are normally a $500 minimum cost overseas. So, depending on the individual's drive, their real world economy has the potential of closing with hybrids.

 

No more than are "priced out" by fins or double headlights or push button shift or whatever other wacky useless "styling" geegaws.

It is a false statement with no basis in fact repeatedly endlessly by US car manufactures who have been proven wrong on that statement for decades. It is why there are only two left, one of whom went bankrupt and was saved as a jobs programs, why they only have 32% of US market, why Volts and Focus EV's sit while Prius can't keep'em on the lot.

"Proper" as in delay so they can try and milk a few more dollars out of our old tech, low mileage, high profit creakers.

Fuel and safety regulations never priced anyone out of a car purchase. End of story.

 

As soons one hears the "Highway" mileage touted, it gets a triple alarm from the Ray and Dave bogosity meter.

I think you mean Escape as the 2013 Explorer is really bad mileage.

2013 Ford Escape AWD 24 combined.
2012 Highlander AWD Hybrid 28 combined.

This actually rates a double bogey since the Highlander is up against the Explorer which is a snappy 19 mpg.

Why did Ford stop making the popular and competitive 30 mpg Escape Hybrid? My guess is Ford's contract with Toyota was up and they didn't want to re-up

If Ford were a real car company, it would have been the Escape Hybrid III AWD getting 40 mpg.

 

The Explorer with the base V6 gets 19 to 20 mpg combined depending on drive train.

I'm talking about the Explorer with the 2.0L ecoboost. I mixed up combined and city in my last post, so here's the official numbers: 20mpg city/28mpg highway/23mpg combined. I should have remembered this because it's the same as my 2006 HHR. A SUV thing that's two size class sizes smaller and 1400 pounds lighter than the Explorer.

Which is impressive for such a vehicle. Matching the Highlander hybrid on the highway for at least $6000 less. I admitted it didn't meet up on city, but it doesn't have start/stop that Ford is optioning on the 2013 Fusion for essentially cost.

So I do believe the redesigned Escape with ecoboost will approach what the hybrid got for those who must have AWD or simply don't like the C-max hybrid which will get better than the Prius v.

Have any support for that?

 

Vs Highlander/Lexus450 of 28 mpg.

Escape Hybrid beat the Highlander/Lexus and had Ford kept improving it (see Prius II to Prius III), would have gotten further ahead.

Instead Ford is now out of the business.

No you are talking 2013 ESCAPE with 2.0L Ecoboost which has a combined of 24 mpg. That is a 25% DECLINE in mpg from my 30 mpg 2009 Escape Hybrid AWD. Traded in for a Prius 3/3 at 50 mpg which was a 20% INCREASE in mileage from 2009 Prius.

Shows the direction of US car mfgs, backwards.

Keep moving forward.

 

Were you smoking something on 4/20? As I said the american auto companies are supporting the higher CAFE rules. You seem to be arguing with yourself.

As to tail fins making cars expensive, what decade are you living in. I don't see no stinking tail fins. 30 years ago the average price of a new car was eight thousand dollars, now its over thirty thousand. Much of the price increase had to do with higher regulations, but cafe did not change significantly during this time period. Do you think as many people can afford new cars as 25 years ago? No, they are less affordable.

SUV and CUVs have gotten much more efficient, but still burn a great deal of gasoline. There is no conspiracy of toyota charging ford for hybrids.

 

Whether or not the C-max hybrid was released, the Prius v was coming to take a big chunk of the market, including taxis. The FEH was $30k, while the v starts at $26k.

So yes that would only leave AWD and ground clearance.

 

The Highlander Hybrid is $10k more than the Explorer. That's 108k city miles or 322k highway miles and that's for the 3.5L Explorer.

Ford has ditched the Escape Hybrid because a large part of its market would be eaten by hybrid wagons, the Prius v and their coming C-Max. With a much-reduced market, and, (very importantly) bought-in components and more efficient ICEV versions increasing the hybrid premium, Ford simply didn't have any financial incentive to keep the Escape Hybrid going.

I fail to see how dropping one aging, low-selling hybrid while improving fuel economy across its the rest of its fleet, updating an existing hybrid, adding a new hybrid, adding a BEV, moving all EV traction batteries to lithium and adding cheap stop/start to all models is moving backwards.

Incidentally Ford and Toyota are collaborating on a new hybrid platform for larger vehicles that will no doubt include 4WD and towing capability. It that collaboration bears fruit, I'm sure you'll see the introduction of hybrid options in Ford's SUV and pick-up lines, but given the introduction of the C-max I'm not sure they'd re-introduce the option to the Escape.

 

My Escape Hybrid AWD was $10K more than similar Escape Reg. AWD and $10K less than Highlander, $20K less than Lexus 450h.

None of those are AWD.

Escape Hybrid was a successful seller for Ford. Ford had a competive advantage in AWD hybrid at both the price and performance points and threw it away.

As for "aging", that would be like calling the Prius aging. The point is Ford didn't have solid evolutionary path for the Escape Hybrid AWD and Toyota does for Highlander Hybrid/Lexus 450h. There should have been a redesigned Escape Hybrid along with the other models, getting 40 mpg. Ford got out of the business vs. developing competitive and evolutionary vehicles. I got out of Ford into a Toyota.

 

Perhaps the EPA got the date and spelling wrong here:
Compare Side-by-Side

Like the 2013 Fusion and Focus ST, the 2.0 ecoboost in the 2013 Escape is a performance upgrade. It replaces the V6 option of previous years. The 2.5L remains the base, and the economy option is the 1.6 ecoboost, available in FWD and AWD. Numbers have not been released yet. It won't match the hybrid in city, but neither will it cost a person $10k.

So was the Ranger, and Ford only had to do occasional refreshes for over 15 years to keep selling it. But it's gone too. The new global model grew in size, and would compete with the F150. Updating the smaller Ranger to regulations would increase its cost, while improvements were closing the efficiency gap between it and the F150.

A hybrid Escape would be facing hybrid wagons on the FWD front. With AWD there are the greatly improved Subarus, Mazda skyativ, and Ford's own ecoboost. All of which are cheaper than a hybrid is the more cost sensitive segment.

While some have an actual need for AWD, most do not(you ditched it for a Prius). As gas prices increase, that 2 mpg decrease for AWD becomes more noticable. The AWD on the Highlander and Lexus 450h is so Toyota can advertize a tow rating, because the FWD model's is the same as the Prius.

The Escape hybrid's AWD system is the same as in the ICE's, which is FWD based. There is no reason that Ford couldn't adopt their evolving hybrid system from the Fusion and C-max into the Escape if they felt it financially viable.

Do the futures of the Highlander and 450h involve not losing space over the non-hybrid? Will the AWD be capable of going off road?

 

Did all of those FEH taxis sell because of the 4WD? No, they sold because there was no match for economy at its size.

Was. Past tense. 1,100 sales per month cannibalizing the Escape isn't enough.

They're still improving their hybrids. If you want to blame anyone, ask why Toyota didn't produce a RAV4 Hybrid that would threaten conventional Ford Escape sales.

 

At 23 mpg for FWD, no doubt Ford got the car wrong. That's really bad. The Ford Explorer AWD is only a V6 at...ta da...19 mpg. That's what my 2001 Explorer AWD got. Ford has spun its wheels for 12 years.

The new 2013 Escape is a lousy 24 mpg. Not sure why anyone would buy these vehicles. All going backwards in mpg for Ford who is out of the 30 mpg, AWD SUV market vs. Toyota/Lexus. My 2009 Escape Hybrid AWD got 30 mpg.

It looked like Ford was going to be competitive for a bit, Fusion hybrid and Escape Hybrid. Focus/Fiesta hybrid at 50 mpg was where they needed to be in 2013 but it never happened.

Do Audi Quattro's go "off road"? BMWxi's. Merc 4Matics. Subaru WRX's? AWD drive is not for "off road". That's not the AWD market.

 

They likely knew Ford was no longer going to be a competitor and they had the Highlander/RX450's going at 30 mpg. Probably viewed it as competing against themselves. My Escape was $36K which is right in the middle of the Highlander line.

Now Toyota has market to themselves.

Next logical for them would be AWD Prius getting 40 mpg, putting traction motors on the rear wheels for as needed AWD to eat into Suburu's market.

 

Then why does Toyota need a footnote on the Highlander site specificly stating it isn't intended to be taken off road, unless people looking for a SUV that they might want to take off road? Why isn't it offered on the Prius or Camry.

The AWD market are the performance crowd, who don't give much thought to fuel economy, and the what if'ers. They don't actually need AWD. A set of steelies with snow tires is cheaper over the life of the vehicle than AWD. Then there are those who really wanted 4WD for off road use, but couldn't get it.

2012 Rav4 FWD, 2.5L, 24 mpg combined; the AWD is also 24; 2012 Highlander 2.7L FWD, 22; 19 for AWD with V6 only; 2012 4runner is 19 in 2WD or 4WD.

There goes Toyota. Spinning their wheels.

Your 2001 Explorer got 15mpg combined with 4WD, which isn't AWD.
Compare Side-by-Side

Just curious, what grade level did you test at for reading comprehension?

The Escape you keep harping about getting lousy economy is the performance option. It is a replacement for the outgoing V6 model. To clarify, the 2013 will not have any V6 option. The 2.0 ecoboost gets 1 mpg better than the 3.5L V6, while producing more power over a wider rpm band. It is 2 mpg better than the Rav4 with V6. It can also tow as much as the highlander hybrid.

The replacement for the hybrid is the 1.6 ecoboost. Official numbers aren't out yet.

 

Sales of hybrid AWD vehicles (Escape, Highlander, Lexus) and fuel efficient AWD (Subaru) prove that statement wrong.

People buy them for bad weather climates and utility such as winter sports.

It was the highest mileage AWD vehicle available, beating the small Subuar AWD's and less money than Highlander so Ford had a sweet spot. They gave it up for the same reason US car companies have nothing to compete with Prius. Short term thinking that has lead to most US car companies going bankrupt and total share of market reduced to 35%.

Ford's decision to get out of the business vs. progressively better vehicles is typical of US car manufacturers. It's why Prius is out with more models and Ford cancels models and has nothing to compete.

 

The poor weather and winter AWD users are the if'ers. They make snow tires for places where it is actually on the road for extended periods. FWD with snow tires is just as good as AWD with all seasons. With the difference between equipment and fuel costs, a person will save with the FWD/snow tires combo. For other weather, slow down. AWD isn't going to help you stop.

Do you know the EPA numbers for the 1.6 ecoboost Escape? I don't. Ford hasn't released anything, and neither has the EPA. Until we see the numbers, we can't say if they've given up anything.

They do have more competitors in the segment. The new Subaru Impreza is rated 30 combined. This is the first time they have had a fuel efficient model. The previous year's model was only 22. The Mazda CX-5 is rated 28. The Escape 1.6 will likely be in the same range.

Ford lightened and improved the aerodynamics for the new Escape. The Prius v is still lighter, and most likely slipperier in the wind. It is rated 42 combined. A new Escape hybrid with AWD couldn't match it. It would be better than the Mazda and Subaru, but needs to be much better or close in price.

With a partnership with Toyota for a truck hybrid system, and their battery production going to the new C-max and Fusion, why should Ford divert resources to a model that is currently selling a little over 300 a month, and whose replacement might soon be replaced?

 

Most of us in snow country go AWD with snow tires. I had Nokian WG's on my Escape Hybrid AWD.

AWD is not off highway. You'd want to read up on 4WD and break over points etc. That's a different world.

 

And you found the FWD Prius acceptable.
How many AWD models were available 20 years ago? 30? There might have been a few European models, and the SUV craze wasn't always so. What did people in snow country then? Get house bound for weeks?

AWD can be a necessity for some. Ford discontinuing the Escape hybrid isn't a sign of them abandoning hybrids. Based on what the new Fusion hybrid is supposed to attain, a new Escape one would probably only get 35mpg at most, and that's a bigger gain than the gen2 to gen3 Prius. Less is more likely.

With Ford and competitors offering ICE's that can match the current Escape hybrid for a lower price, why would Ford divert manpower, brainpower, and materials away from their offer hybrid projects for a market that has a lower sales potential?

It was developed for the racing circuit, and was eventually banned from it. It improves handling and traction. Then the manufacturers started putting it SUVs that were marketed as go anywhere vehicles. Most of the time it isn't even symmetrical. But it can work for rough trails and light off roading, if it was designed with that in mind.

 

Say after me Suuubaaaruuuu.

It's a sign of Ford not being competitive in AWD vehicles. They used to compete. Now they don't. A next generation Escape AWD hybrid would have been 35-40 mpg. I'd be driving one. Instead I'm driving a Prius.

Prius goes to 50 mpg and Ford has nothing. A Focus or Fiesta hybrid should have been developing in competition. I'd be driving one of those. Instead I'm driving a Prius.

GM is not even in the picture and Ford is less and less in the picture.