Toyota to build new Prius in US

Let it be noted that this is when the Prius stops being economical as it will be 'tuned' to reflect and meet the needs of the American market. As such, it'll become bigger than the Japan made World market gen4 Prius, quicker too but less economical, have a 2.5 V6 engine, etc etc.

Cynical but that's my view. I can imagine reading this forum in 2020 where American owners are asking why they can't buy the world market gen5 Prius that gets 200 mpg, instead of their US market 100 mpg gas guzzler.

 

You will note that the gen 2 and gen 3 were tuned to United States market. The size of the aqua/prius c means that the car may get larger. There is no chance for a V6 though, the american market has been moving away from them. A more efficient engine is quite likely and was outlined as potentially 42% for normally aspirated, 45% for turbo charged compared to the current 38% efficient engine. More hp actually increased fuel economy in both the gen 2 and gen 3. I would expect the ice to be 2L or less as these are taxed less in many markets.

I would too, I doubt that anyone but the whiners in the US in 2020 will be upset that they get the higher powered 100mpg model. The reason we can't import many of the higher mileage european or asian cars are safety and/or emissions requirements. The prius c/aqua satisfies these quite well, so I doubt any future prius would have trouble.

 

You know, I have wondered why Toyota went with the atkinson cycle engine to begin with and only what 89 net HP???? I grew up GM as my dad was a mechanic for 40+ years at a dealership... with that said, the new Cruze and sonic use a 1.4L turbo that puts out over 150HP and in their cars are getting 36-40 highway. That motor in a prius with the on/off functionality and the electric acceleration one would think would make the prius a "fun to drive" sporty little car. I know they have partnered with toyota and isuzu before in the past. the pontiac vibe was built on the toyota carolla chassis platform. there are others too.... ICE engines have come along way with power in a small sipping package... i was somewhat disappointed Toyota hasn't utilized the technology. My theory is that is has to do with the atkinson cycle and how it must warm up faster or something to reach efficiency faster... ?? maybe?? I don't know. curious though.

 

This is about manufacturing in america, your questions would probably be answered better in a technical section.

An atkinson engine is more efficient than an otto because it has lower levels of pumping losses. In a normal otto energy is used to compress the air in the down stroke, but can not recover it all on the expansion stroke. The atkinson cycle has a longer expansion stroke and gets to use more of the energy. A problem with atkinson though is it has low torque at low power levels, making it tough to work with a normal transmission. The hsd uses motor/generators to convert the engines torque to whatever the software calls for. Toyota also uses cooled egr, which effectively reduces displace at low power settings, and allows leaner mixtures at higher power settings. Combined this means lower pumping and throttling losses, but requires a larger displacement for the same power. The gen III ice is 1.8L and 98hp, but can stay in a highly efficient range over a wide varieties of power settings. The battery can add 36 hp of power making it 134. At low speeds the hsd makes this accelate like a more powerful engine because of the low end torque. In the camry hybrid there is over 200 hp. The upcoming ford hybrids out later this year will use 2L atkinson engines and get around 190hp and 45mpg combined. Turbos also can work efficiently like atkinson cycle engines but they don't make sense in a hybrid until you want over 200hp.

That wasn't america, it was idiots that thought they knew what america wanted.

 

But I didn't want that. I was already getting 35-37 highway mpg in a 1986 Accord Hatchback. 150HP and additional sportiness doesn't float my boat. Instead, coupled with a genetic middle ear issue, it makes me vomit.

A couple decades later, there was no way that I'd have traded in that Accord for a measly 36-40 mpg. It took a 2010 Prius to pry that great old car out of my hands.

The Atkinson cycle has higher efficiency than the Otto cycle engines in non-hybrids. Even before warming up. And Toyota's HSD system is producing excellent engine efficiency over a much wider operating load range than can those archaic non-hybrid Otto engines.

 

I was exaggerating the specs to prove the point. The fact the gen3 has a more powerful 1.8 instead of 1.5 litre engine is that Americans (the Prius's biggest market) said the gen2 was too slow. Imagine how much more economical the gen3 could have been if Toyota had just said no and designed the car they probably wanted.

Another example of an American equivalent is the latest VW Passatt which is much bigger, faster, but less economical than the European version.

An American built Prius, whilst appeasing the Unions, will become larger and less economical than the World version - you know it and I know it. It will still be economical compared to other American models out there but this is the point where the US version goes its way and everyone else goes theres - again.

I'm sure there are pro's and con's to this US manufactured Prius but I think the specs will probably upset a lot of old time Prius fans.

If the US gen4 Prius is more economical than the World market gen4, then I'll eat my hat.

 

And 25-28 in the city. Can't forget that part. The Prius gets 51/48 (city/hwy), 50 mpg combined. So a Cruze averages about 35% less distance per gallon for a car with pretty similar dimensions. The extra battery pack weighs down the Prius, so it takes a full half-second longer than the Cruze for the 0-60 time (9.7 seconds vs. 9.2).

You are right. I'm not sure they'll diverge, but if they do, it will be that way. All cars tend to get bigger and more powerful and faster over time. Compare a 1980's Civic vs. today. It got so big they needed to add a Honda Fit to the lineup to take the place of what the Civic used to be. That's probably why they added the Prius c, since the regular Prius is already getting bigger.

But unions aren't used as much as before, particularly in manufacturing plants owned by foreign companies. That's one of the reasons some people push the buy-American agenda even when many foreign-labeled cars are built right here with as much American components as any domestic car.

 

2015 is not that far away. I hope they can get it done sooner rather than later...

 

Study up bro. Hybrid Synergy Drive is quite a bit more complicated than the 'on/off functionality' you are speaking of. Maybe Prius c is more of a 'sporty little car' but I don't think HSD is intended to gove off sportiness. Try PWR MODE though, it's kinda cool. Lexus CT handles nicely.

HSD replaces the automatic transmission/gearbox, starter and alternator in conventional cars with two motor generators connected along with the ICE and drive shaft into a 'power split' planetary gearset (ring, sun and planetary carrier) which acts as a continuously variable transmission with electronic control. And there's a hybrid battery for traction, energy storage and a regenerative braking system. The AWD highlander hybrid uses a 3rd motor generator.

Said that off top of my head. Sound about right ya'll?

 

Three years ago, the introduction rhetoric did spin the Gen3's larger engine as contributing to improved fuel economy. But buried deep in an old PC thread is an admission by a non-U.S. Toyota rep that Gen3 would have done even better if the engine had not been enlarged. And I believe there were other comments in the same conversation that supported Grumpy's assertion.

That larger engine did contribute enormously to the Prius's U.S.-market sales success.

 

If you mean economical as in fuel economy, you will note years later they came out with the aqua, with a smaller lighter body and 1.5L engine. It does exactly the same as the prius on US mpg. It does to better on the less aggressive Japanese test, but not by much at all.

Toyota closed their last union shop in 2010. Unions are not happy with the company at all. It is better for US employment, and it is less expensive to build the cars here. Japanese labor and electricity cost are higher, plus there is transportation and the requirement to hold larger inventory for shipped cars. I really don't see a down side other than a mercantile japanese, wanting to protect japanese jobs.

It will end up being exactly the same, unless they do a special chinese version.

Fuzzy1 your an engineer. You can look at the bsfc diagrams, the new engine is more efficient. Part of the reason is it is based on a the more modern design of the 1.8L engine, but part is also that under-powering a car results in worse efficiency. The engine doesn't need to work as hard, keeping it in its efficient range with lower rpm and lower frictional losses. You can see the positive effects on the prius versus aqua. Aqua gets a city rating of 53 vs 51 but is 500lbs lighter. If it had the more efficient engine this numbers should be higher. On highway aerodynamic and power effects happen and the aqua drops to 46, 2 bellow. That rep that rumored a smaller engine was better had no idea what he was talking about. The more efficient larger engine is one reason the car does so well.

 

There are other differences besides the engine though, and other design goals. Fuel efficiency was still a priority, but it was more important to meet a price point. Cost and space limits meant using a smaller battery. The Prius' economy improves with a larger pack for PHV even without plugging in. People were reporting that before the factory model was available.

The 1.8 is more efficient than the 1.5. It should be, it's a newer engine. The 1.5 in the c doesn't have all the improvements Being used in more models, it is a better investment to update the 1.8 over the 1.5. That makes sense, but the other reason to use it in the Prius is that it is more efficient at the speeds Americans drive. In Japan and most European countries, they would likely have been better off with a revised 1.5. When hypermiled the gen2 has a higher potential than a gen3. It also has a slightly wider city/highway spread than the 3.

Grumpy's assessment is wrong. We won't be wishing for a more efficient future, overseas model. They'll be bitching that Toyota hamstrung theirs to appease the American market.

 

+1

I agree with all of that except for europeans driving slower than americans It depends on what roads and what country. I've driven quite fast in both europe and america, but the european cars I drove were built to go faster

 

Only one way to find out - wait 10 years

But considering every European and most Japanese cars that have been Americanized in the last 30 years have all ended up bigger and less economical than the home grown versions, I'm sure I'll be right.

Even the Ford Focus versions in Europe get more economical engines, always have had until recently when Ford started shipping them or at least their designs over to America.

I'm eagerly awaiting the European gen4 Prius specs so I can see if they now differ from the US version. The gen1, 2 and 3 Prii were World cars, but now Prius is selling in greater numbers they'll focus them to the individual markets.

 

I think the Gen 3 1.8L wasn't just about Americanization, it focused on improving performance under higher speeds and higher demands in order to broaden the global appeal. It was the Prius for normal drivers..

I think the Prius is different to most cars. People are drawn to it specifically for the fuel economy.. For the 8k per month who want to compromise there's now the Prius v and the improved Camry Hybrid. In the face of better competition, sacrificing Prius liftback fuel economy would just make the hybrid premium a harder sell. They might expand the range of options, but I don't think they'll hurt the core.

 

I'm not holding my breath with more efficiency in the next generation of the Prius. I'm sure they can get it up to 55MPG HWY/city with the normal Prius, and perhaps have a plug-in option on all Pri but there isn't much more engine efficiency possible. Their existing Atkinson is close to the efficiency of a diesel as it is. I'm sure they can tweak their engine to get a bit more efficiency out of it but not much. They can go to direct injection from MFI, make it have a longer stroke and less bore, and perhaps a turbo. I read this on some article about Toyota aiming to improve efficiency to 48% or so eventually, somehow.
I have my eye set on the Zaptera 3-wheeled electric car, the extended-range EV version. Maybe 90MPG if never plugged in. Hopefully they can have the engine directly power the front wheels like in the Prius/Volt for the best efficiency versus running the generator to power the electric motor when in charge-sustain mode.
Who knows if the Zaptera will ever be a reality though.