A123 Systems / Hymotion = factory closed?

the dealers or the packs?

 

The dealers.

 

Has anyone tried to contact them about releasing the source code and technical documentation after the last warranty is over so we can maintain them ourselves?

 

green car congress states they are or have filed bankruptcy.......

 

Really?

-Htc Tapatalk

 

might be filing for reorganiztion. hopefully, they can get some funding. energy dept. ought to jump in before the chinese buy them.

 

Here's a recent article about A123: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120605/OEM10/120609923/1186

In regard to the question that snookums asked ("Has anyone tried to contact them about releasing the source code and technical documentation after the last warranty is over so we can maintain them ourselves?"), I wouldn't get my hopes up about that ...but it never hurts to ask.

 

Here's another positive announcement from A123 Systems:

Lithium Ion Battery Technology | Nanophosphate EXT | A123


If these work as well as they say they do, I want a Nanophosphate EXT battery in my next electric car!

 

the A123 now used in our DIy systems sounds great to

--

Power:

Nanophosphate is a positive electrode material of remarkable rate capability, critical to high power systems. Our high power products are able to pulse at discharge rates as high as 100C and deliver superior power by weight or volume in a cost effective solution. With their low impedance and thermally conductive design, A123 high power cells can be continuously discharged at a 35C rate, a marked improvement over other rechargeable battery alternatives, and have consistent power over wide state of charge (SOC) range.
Safety:

Safety begins with chemistry. A123’s Nanophosphate is stable chemically, which provides the foundation for safe systems while meeting the most demanding customer requirements. Multiple layers of protection are employed at the chemistry, cell and system level to achieve an energy storage solution with superior safety and abuse tolerance compared to metal oxide lithium ion chemistries.
Life:

A123’s ltihium iron phosphate technology delivers exceptional calendar and cycle life. At low rates our cells can deliver thousands of cycles at 100% depth of discharge (DOD), a feat unmatched by most commercial lithium ion cells. Even when cycled at 10C discharge rates, our cells deliver in excess of 1,000 full DOD cycles. Not only does A123’s technology retain its energy, it also retains its power capability.
Energy:

A123’s batteries have higher usable energy than other lithium ion technologies which enables greater battery utilization. A123’s high usable energy results from the combination of excellent abuse tolerance and calendar life at high state of charge (SOC), as well as excellent power capability at low SOC. In addition, the technology has excellent deep-discharge cycle life, meaning that you don’t need to protect the battery by cycling it more shallowly. This allows the battery to be used over a wide range of SOC. Deeper cycling and a wider usable SOC range means higher usable energy; more of the battery’s energy can actually be utilized in the application.

 

Here is the data sheet for the cells that are in our Hymotion battery packs:

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610.pdf

 

I'm not sure "dropping like flies" is entirely accurate. We were dealing with Hymotion before A123 and we will likely be around after A123.

 

Yeah, my "dropping like flies" comment applies to some areas much more than others.

At one point, I was hoping to have my car serviced while visiting my family, in central Wisconsin. So, I contacted the Hymotion/A123 "green chip" dealers, in Madison and in Minneapolis. They both told me that they were no longer providing service for Hymotion systems. Then, I contacted Westboro Toyota, near Boston, which is where I had my Hymotion system installed. They didn't sound very confident about being able to provide me with any service. In fact, they never called me back.

On the other hand, the dealers in (or near) Toronto and Washington, DC, are both still very actively involved. Unfortunately, I live in a place that is almost equidistant to Boston, Toronto, and Washington, DC. I ended up going to DC. (The dealer is actually in Gaithersburg, Maryland.)

As for what things will be like "after A123," we're already there. A123 still plays a "managerial" role, of sorts, but the Toyota dealer, in Gaithersburg, uninstalled my system, shipped it to Sybesmas Electronics, in Holland, Michigan. Sybesmas did the repair/refurbishing/testing and then shipped it back to Gaithersburg, to be reinstalled in my car.

So, A123 is no longer selling or servicing Hymotion systems. Sales stopped quite a while ago. Service (in or out of warranty) is provided by a few, scattered Toyota dealers (and a couple of indepent garages, like yours), in conjunction with a third-party electronics service company (Sybesmas).

 

For those in the Madison, WI area, there are still options for service on your Hymotion system. You can always give my independent shop a call. EV Powers. 608-729-4082. We do work on aftermarket hybrid upgrades like PHEV systems.

 

Eric,

It's great to hear that there is someone working on EV's, in Madison.

However, the two times I needed service on my Hymotion system (and it would have been convenient to stop and get it in Madison) were (1) for a firmware upgrade, and (2) to have my battery pack uninstalled and shipped to Sybesmas Electronics, in Holland, MI.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a fews secrets A123 would have to tell you, for you to be able to do that kind of service.

However, your comment does make me wish that I lived in Madison (which I did, for a few months, in 1981) and that I had bought one of the more "do-it-yourself" conversion kits, that can be more easily serviced.

I'm a big believer in open-source software and that sort of thing. I recently bought a LawnBott, robotic lawn-mower and am very happy with the modular design where they sent me parts and I replace them, myself, including a cable to do free firmware upgrades, online. Don't you wish that car manufacturers operated that way?

I'm debating what might be my best option for acquiring a small, relatively-inexpensive, fully-electric car: Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi "i," Ford Focus Electric (which is really just a "compliance" car), or some sort of full conversion of a small gasoline car. Currently, I'm not seeing any of those as being really great options. I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Arthur

 

Why do you call the Focus a compliance car? Why is that anymore so than any of the others? The Focus is actually getting some pretty good reviews. Out of those 3 it's the one I'd choose (on merits, not on loyalty).

I've got my eye on the C-Max Energi (Energi is the tag for Ford's PHEV's). I saw one at a show last weekend. The Ford rep couldn't tell me a price but said that it would be the most "affordable PHEV" - who knows what that means. Although, AFAIK, they've sacrificed EV only range to about 20 miles to keep the cost down. But that makes sense for my driving situation (<5 mile commute during the week but high mileage once or twice a month to go "up North").

About a month ago I drove my friend's Chevy Volt. It's a really nice car - and it's what finally gave me a kick in the pants to get around to doing my own plug-in...

It's a great time in the auto industry. We're finally getting a a wide range of electric options. But there's always room for DIY!

 

Here's an article that explains about "compliance cars." It's a very real phenomenon.

Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names

 

I understand the concept of a compliance car. I also understand the desire of online publications to attract eyeballs. And I can understand the emotions behind all this after the EV-1 and (first) RAV-4 EV debacles.

However, that article presents a pretty weak set of arguments. The basis of their argument against Ford can be summed up as "Ford wouldn't tell us what we want to know so we're going to call it a compliance car." Fair enough. Perhaps they don't want to tout big numbers and then not meet them? Perhaps they want to take a modest approach that will be more sustainable both in the market place and within the company itself?

Setting sales perceptions sky-high and then not meeting them doesn't do anybody any good. Sure, we'd all like to see tens of thousands of these vehicles sold - but I doubt that's going to happen any time soon. Under promise and over deliver. Not the other way around.

Oh, and as far as "dinging" a bunch of manufacturers for "converting a gas car" is also dumb. "All are conversions of existing gasoline vehicles, rather than purpose-built battery-electric vehicles like the Nissan Leaf or Tesla Model S." I wish more car companies would take that approach - it helps keep costs down. Way down. It also reduces risk. These are good things - not bad things.

So, I call BS on that article (arm chair editing is great! ) But hey, you buy what you want (how magnanimous of me )

 

The problem w/converting a car is that people, blogs and publications can directly compare the EV to ICE version, see the price premium and make conclusions that it's "not worth it". Some people also want a car that looks distinct from its ICE version. If there is none then... Some have made this as an argument as to why the Prius has succeeded in terms of sales whereas other hybrids haven't (May 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars).

Also, converted cars seem to make compromises in terms of interior and cargo space (e.g. FFE and Volt) whereas the Leaf and Tesla Model S have the battery bottom mounted.

 

I'm not saying that converting a car isn't without compromises. Engineering is the art of compromise.

However, my point is why spend the extra money on a whole new car design at this stage of the nascent market. The more money that a car company pours into a project the more cars it has to sell. The market for that number of cars isn't there yet (despite what we might wish for) and the key sticking point is price. So, there's a decent argument to be made for trying one's best to keep the price down.

Choice is also fine - I've no particular issue with new from the ground-up vehicles (with their own set of compromises). It's just short-sighted (like the entire article was) to consider conversion a "bad thing".

 

The above was on Feb 9th. Right now, AONE is being hammered again, down 14.72% right now to $0.5376/share.