Edmunds Smackdown #2 and #4

Sigh... "40 mpg" is based upon EPA highway estimates. Not everyone lives and works on a highway and drives their entire commute at highway speeds. Plenty of people are stuck in stop and go traffic and doing a lot of idling.

Per Compare Side-by-Side, the Elantra is EPA rated at 33 mpg COMBINED AND 29 city. Prius is rated at 50 mpg combined. $12K? Per Hyundai Elantra 2013 | Review Specs Features & Prices | Hyundai , starting MSRP is $16,695. Elantra didn't even make it at The most fuel-efficient cars. It got 29 mpg overall at Best & worst fuel economy vs. the 44 for the Prius liftback and 43 for the c.

Maybe a better case would be 2012 Nissan Versa - Models, Pricing & Information | Nissan USA at $10,990 starting price .

BTW, Prius was named at Consumer Reports names best new-car values as a best value. At Best values (you'll need a subscription to see it), Prius was #3 out of 25 for small hatchbacks, only behind Honda Fits. It got a "value score" of 2.21. The Elantra was #5 out of 13 for small sedans w/a value score of 1.64.

 

I stand corrected, let's all pack up and move on over to VersaChat!

 

^^^
I haven't read some of your other CR analyses in detail, but I'm sure (off the top of my head) ride quality, interior quality, fit and finish and seat comfort (beyond just the driver) also count.

 

A daily average doesn't tell you the CD:CS ratio. You need a better breakdown.

 

You probably missed my earlier reply. By the way, I believe you are intelligent and reasonable, and this discussion between us will likely end with understanding and agreement.

I agree with what you state re: daily mileage (although the 180 mile test was much higher than what people drive in a day).

If you look at the daily miles driven by your colleagues at Marshall Space Center, you will find that IF Marshall provides vehicle charging, the Volt will provide the best fuel economy and total fuel costs. If you drive 80 miles r/t but you recharge at work, then you drive two 40 mile trips. Your gasoline consumption will be very low, perhaps ten miles total will be gas-powered, which works out to about 300 MPG if my math is right.

 

Recharge takes about 10 hours on 120V. It takes 4 hours at 240V, but that requires a $500 charging station that somebody would have to pay for:

SPX Volt - Recommended Charging Products

One station could handle two Volts in a workday, but somebody would have to trot out to the cars and swap the plugs at midday.

 

This newer report praises Volkswagen's diesel in the Volkswagen Passat TDI.

The 40-MPG Challenge - Edmunds.com

 

Greenwashing stuff like that continues, despite years of their attempts and our efforts to point out things like generalizations and cherry-picking.

Lots of real-world data is the only meaningful reponse. Of course, even then they attempt to dismiss. Here's mine so far... which makes it quite clear that daily distance varies dramatically:

 

If the MSFC employees bought Leafs & Teslas they would enjoy infinity MPG. The plug-in owners forget that electricity is not free. Operating cost per mile should be the benchmark. Using Tesla's calculator & 12c per kwh the Model S costs 3.4c per mile. Using my lifetime average & the $3.249/gallon I paid for the current tank the Prius costs 6c per mile. This gives the Model S a 95.6 mpg equivalent.

I am sure some Volt owners can get away with using 87 octane without taking a performance hit.

Volt & PiP owners, what do you end up paying per mile to run your cars?

 

Let's talk about how expensive underground fuel storage tanks and gas pumps cost.

Today, electric vehicle chargers are insanely expensive, but that's only because volume is ridiculously low. Virtually every building in America already has 240V electric service. The expensive part is done. True, is costs money to run conduit to a parking lot, but if this is done with new construction and renovation, the cost is fairly low. I ran a new circuit/outlet myself, and the building permit cost more than the materials.

We don't argue with the notion of building parking lots nor with running electrical power to the street lamps which illuminate them at night, so yes, we have an electric infrastructure already and we can make public charging a reality. What's more, if battery technology continues to improve, maybe public charging will only be necessary for long distance travel on freeways.

 

well. i pay .16/kwh and travel about 5.5 miles on it so that is... 3 cents per mile?

 

By your logic, you shouldn't have bought a Prius, because a 46% reduction in fuel cost is meaningless.

Electric vehicles are primarily charged at home, off-peak. Utility companies are gradually rolling out time-of-use rates which reduces the cost to charge EV's dramatically.

For my PiP, a once daily charge costs about $13/month. My utility offers a $15/month rebate to EV owners who charge off-peak (honor system). So my electric cost is about negative $2.00/month, but that's really because PiP has a ridiculously small battery for a plug-in.

I know Volt gets derided here a lot, and I think it's unjustified. Volt has twice the battery capacity of PiP. I really wish PiP had that larger battery. Jay Leno drove his Volt over 11,000 miles on one tank of gas. That would be extremely difficult for a PiP owner to do.

 

I'm for EV's and plug-ins, just injecting a modicum of practicality into the discussion. Several things about the present gas station setup:
(1) it exists - pumps and underground storage already there, no need for additional investment - sure we have the basic electrical network, but the final step is missing - sort of like having a nice bridge but the offramp hasn't been built yet
(2) the gas station network was built up over roughly 100 years with earnings from sales - either the vehicle charging network will build slowly or cash will have to be infused
(3) government (and business) budgets are tight these days due to the economy
(4) even with 500V chargers, the model will be quite different from the quick-in, quick-out gas station paradigm - the Leaf takes 15 minutes to charge on a 500V DC charger, and we can expect that longer range EV's will take longer

A few other considerations:
- we don't yet know what EV/plugin battery life will be, given the more intense battery usage than in hybrids to date
- how will quick charging will affect battery life?
- how much will recharging cost increase if it becomes a business and the retailer marks up the kwh to cover rent, chargers, and PROFIT?
- fully 50% of US households don't have a place (garage) they could use for recharging a vehicle, so that will have to be dealt with somehow
- if there are public stations, how will I know one will be available so I can charge my car to get to work tomorrow? how far will I have to walk to it if I have to leave the car there? - all solvable, but solutions will have to be figured out
- is street lamp circuitry capable of carrying the power needed for EV charging? with sodium vapor lamps in use these days, I suspect not

Here's a case study: Before I retired, I commuted 34 miles each way. If I were still working, I would probably want a Leaf or perhaps a PIP. The problem is that I own a condo and our carports have only 110v lighting circuits. Getting 240v to them would involve trenching across the roadway. The carports and roadway are being redone this year, and convincing the condo board to run power for car recharging to at least SOME of the carports has been a battle. At work, parking was extremely tight and I was lucky to get parking in a municipal parking structure. But it was built (poorly) in the '60's. An extensive repair program was under way (chunks of concrete from the ceilings were falling on cars) costing so much that persuading them to add EV chargers would have been an uphill battle. Yes there was power in the garage, but only enough for the fluorescent and sodium vapor lighting systems.

Another: My GF lives in Medford, MA. She too owns a condo, one of two units converted from a house. Yes the house has a garage but it belongs to the other unit. So in effect no garage. And many of the other houses in the area lack a garage. It doesn't matter too much because we get around by bicycle, or could use buses/subway. But an EV or a plug-in wouldn't work for her, at present at least.

 

Can someone tell me the point of this discussion? I have two advanced degrees and I can't follow . The three cars are grouped together as being comparable - but actually the high points of each are very different and unless you are going to hit the respective sweat spots ....... so to speak ... something else wins out. This is also not factoring in the higher initial costs of each vs another choice. Another major buying point is if this is a primary or a secondary car. I'm seeing an amazing number of hybrid cars in my neighborhood ... not as primary cars.

 

I think I'm the "Volt advocates" in this thread.

I agree that plug-in vehicles are new, and they aren't for everyone. My commute is 80+ miles per day, which made a Nissan Leaf impractical. What conclusions can be drawn from that? That Leaf isn't for everyone.

Now let's take the Volt. For 64 miles, it it more fuel efficient than any car on the road, including Plug-in Prius. That itself is an impressive statistic. And the car doesn't have the range limitations of a Leaf. Now, I chose not to buy one, although I could have.

But here's the thing: Jay Leno drove over 11,000 miles on the car's original tank of gas. This amazes me. And I looked at other Volt stats, and see that many Volt owners are driving thousands of miles and using virtually no gas at all, getting 100's of MPG's.

Those are facts. You can't bury them with statistics. Yes, GM's quality reputation is a problem, the car only seats four, it's expensive, some people drive farther, not everyone can recharge. I agree with all that. But if you can charge the thing at home and your average daily driving is 40 miles, you will get hundreds of MPG's.

Edmunds' 180 mile drive in a city is indicative of the habits of a UPS driver, not an ordinary person.

 

Prius owners like and trust EV technology and many of them will pay a premium to reduce gasoline use or get an EV experience. Most Volt owners are former Prius owners and there are a lot of Prius owners.

However, I've plenty of posts by Volt enthusiasts disappointed that GM doesn't advertise the performance of the Volt in order to attract a different kind of buyer.

If you see Volt owner activity here I think it's a combination of having a current or former interest in the Prius and reality. It's normal for "outsiders" to discuss something in terms of averages, and with PEVs depending so much on individual location and usage patterns, averages are a terribly uninformative way to discuss them. Combine this with ideological clashes of energy efficiency v pollution v gasoline consumption and we end up with: