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TS030 Hybrid at LeMans . . . next year

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Game Over For Toyota – 2012 24 Hours of Le Mans
    I'm hope Toyota returns next year with a more throughly prepared team and set of cars.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Jun 17, 2012
  2. stream

    stream Senior Member

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    Agreed.
     
    #2 stream, Jun 17, 2012
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I did not realize the winning R18 e-tron is a hybrid-electric:
    I have long felt that racing should lead the way to improved fleet mileage and now a hybrid, a turbo-charged diesel, has set the mark. Then there is the interesting NASCAR issue with tires.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Jun 17, 2012
  4. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    The next scheduled race for the Toyota hybrids is Silverstone on August 26th. Lets see if they show up.
    One thing that was nice was that a Toyota rep and the driver that hit the Nissan Delta Wing went over to apologize to the Delta Wing team.
     
    #4 El Dobro, Jun 17, 2012
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes, but these fly wheel hybrids don't make sense for production cars. Regular regen braking + batteries are the path on the production fleet. Advances in lithium batteries provide less of a weight penalty than these systems had in the past.
     
    #5 austingreen, Jun 17, 2012
  6. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    everyone was impressed with their car... too bad about crashes, but thats racing.
     
    #6 spwolf, Jun 17, 2012
  7. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    One of the Toyotas was in first place for a bit. Considering there were four Audis, that wasn't bad.
     
    #7 El Dobro, Jun 17, 2012
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I think we need two styles of hybrids:
    • range hybrids - the Toyota, Ford, and GM Volt, these provide a good mix for private owners. They let us gain thermodynamic advantages and the option to exploit lower cost (untaxed) grid power.
    • impulse hybrids - the Eaton and Audi hybrids provide the impulse for postal, garbage collection and even service trucks of small businesses. They only need to provide the power to resume their original approach speed . . . nothing more but they require a very high, specific power capability. It is limited in duration, 10-15 seconds max, which is only enough needed to overcome inertial losses.
    Bob Wilson
     
    #8 bwilson4web, Jun 17, 2012
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Bob,
    AFAIK the fly wheel type hybrids like this audi, are only practical for racing and demonstrations. The electric batteries have matured enough to get rid of the advantages of a flywheel. There still are hydraulic hybrids, and advantages/disadvantages versus electric depends much on cost and service cycle. I know at least Queens, NY is trying Mack's battery electric hybrid garbage trucks against Crane's hydraulic hybrid ones. Onc big factor on something with a hybrid garbage truck in a big city is lower pollution.
     
    #9 austingreen, Jun 17, 2012
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  10. BigFatGuy

    BigFatGuy Member

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    And returns without Nakajima. I know I wasn't the only one cheering when he blew up. You don't take out the fan favorite Deltawing and expect karma to look the other way.
     
    #10 BigFatGuy, Jun 19, 2012
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I saw the first accident video of the first accident but the camera angle showed the Toyota making the turn that appeared to me to crowd the other car that was blamed for the accident:
    LEMANS: Toyota's Davidson: I have felt better, that’s for sure | News | Motorsport.com

    The video clearly shows the Ferrari turning into the Toyota, taking out the rear. Thereafter, they both became inertial objects at ~200 mph.

    What I'm trying to figure out is what happened in the second crash:
    LEMANS: DeltaWing and Toyota hit at quarter-distance | News | Motorsport.com

    It sounds like the rear of the Toyota impacted the Nissan but the exact mechanics are not clear. You'd think a race like this would have enough camera coverage we could see a reconstruction of each accident to understand what the driver should have done. But as I looked at the DeltaWing I noticed there is about a 2 ft. difference between the front tires and rear tire offset.

    The first time on the track for the DeltaWing, other drivers are used to seeing a 'square' car where the front and rear wheels follow each other. But the DeltaWing has an optical effect that if looking at the front, there is no visual clue to the rear wheels . . . the point of impact for both cars. If there were two DeltaWings, they might have taken each other out as the front of both cars are wider at the back leaving the fronts with no visual clues about what follows.

    It may make more sense to require a 'spacer wing' at the front of the car with 'plates' that are aligned with the widest part of the car. The drag would be minimal but it would give the other drivers a visual reference.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #11 bwilson4web, Jun 20, 2012
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    #12 austingreen, Jun 20, 2012
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Frame-by-frame, the video helps:
    • right rear of Toyota impacts left rear part of Nissan
      • Two frames clearly show the Toyota right real light suddenly dipping down. The camera angle shows this is a rear-to-rear impact
    • Toyota steers to stay on course
    • Nissan goes off pavement (probably losing the last of traction)
    • Nissan glances into wall
      • wider rear, narrow front 'nails' Nissan to wall
    Race over for Nissan and apparently the Toyota too.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #13 bwilson4web, Jun 20, 2012
  14. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    In the commentary, the announcers said there were driver complaints about the Delta Wing, saying that they had a hard time seeing it.
     
    #14 El Dobro, Jun 20, 2012
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  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It is a much smaller target and especially the front. The geometry may make it all but impossible to race with 'ordinary' cars without significant driver retraining and/or blind-spot enhancements.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #15 bwilson4web, Jun 20, 2012
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    They were coming off of a yellow, and the toyota driver was moving agressively, and appeared to not even notice the delta wing was there. The nissan looks like it drifted into the wall unable to regain control. I know the delta wing couldn't compete for points, but I don't understated the concept for racing, those narrow close front tires look like they make it hard to maneuver.

    The toyota was repaired and went back to race. The acccident would have cost it first, but other unrelated problems took it out of the race.

    They may need to put in size rules even for experimental like the delta wing. It clearly looked like it was caused by an inexperienced driver in the Toyota though. The bad accident was caused by the amateur ferrari driver though.
     
    #16 austingreen, Jun 20, 2012
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We mostly agree:
    This is an area that begs video reconstruction. From the rear, I can't tell if the Nissan would have been visible to the Toyota driver. Certainly the unusual shape could easily have led to the rear of both vehicles coming too close together. I like the innovation but this may be an area that begs more analysis.
    My first thought was a Reliant Robbin which I only know about from watching Top Gear. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Jun 20, 2012
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  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The toyota was slightly left and behind another car as he came up on the delta wing. Definitely was visible, but when your concentrating on the car ahead of you to pass, its easy not to notice things going slower to the right. The toyota then swung out, just as the right turn was ending to pass. The delta wing would have likely been in a blind spot when the toyota made the maneuver. The delta wing weighed half as much as the toyota. A different vehicle would likely had a different side impact, but might have been able to continue to race. This was more of a driver error that could have happened no matter what type of car.

    The two small front wheels really do make it look like a three wheeled motor cycle. These have a big advantage of lighter weight. Those that put the two wheels up front are much more stable at speed and easier to maneuver. In racing you want your rear to drift not your front. It just seems like a cool looking design, that lacks good dynamics for racing. Aptera put the two wheels up front for stability even at only highway speed. It looks like the delta had plenty of time to recover, but couldn't get the small front wheels to bite.
     
    #18 austingreen, Jun 20, 2012
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