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Ebike upgrade

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I just ordered 30, LiON poly cells from Eric Powers to replace the lead-acid battery in this puppy:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Shortly after I got it, I had to build my own charger:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The original charger had a restriction on being plugged-in and connected to the battery. My version has no such restrictions!

    I tried to get some technical data . . . no luck!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It uses a heavy, 48V, lead-acid pack rated at 10 miles with a standard, 170 lb rider. I went 7 miles a couple of months ago when I was at 270 lbs. It is also speed limited to 25 mph BUT I'll look at the drive chain and maybe do something ... interesting.

    So what I'll do is build two strings:
    • 15 cell, 3.3 V, 49.5v
    • Operate on first string until it is exhausted
    • Switch to second string and head home
    There are excellent battery management chips available so I'll configure the battery with a pair of built-in, cell balancing, circuits. Once I get an idea of the actual energy use, I may look at solar charging options.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am planning a dual-stack design with an integrated battery management system (BMS):
    [​IMG]
    The dual stack, A123 poly batteries, will significantly improve performance:
    • 10 miles one-way - existing lead-acid battery assumes the battery level indicator is accurate (HAHAHAHA!)
    • ~13-15 miles one-way on one stack - switch to the second and return home. Expected charge 250-300W in about 4 hours for one stack. So I can ride to work on one stack; plug-in to recharge that stack; run other errands as needed, and; if first stack goes dead, switch to second stack and 'go home' to get the Prius.
    I just realize this eBike will have nearly the same, straight-line, electric vehicle range as today's Volt.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Nice upgrade, Bob. I recall advertised range for my ebike at 30 miles, but real word was ~20. What did the upgraded pack end up costing? Any cooling issues?


    Evan, ?
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hi Evan,
    I remember a smaller number, 10 miles but you thin folks probably can get 20 miles. <grins>

    In April I rode a little over 3 miles to Airport Road to pickup some Chinese and back . . . into a power outage. A little over 6 miles, at the end I was pedaling but I had to use the lights more than expected.

    These are Eric Power's cells running just under $30 each. My 30 cells are coming in at $810, delivered. I expect to spend another $200 for the battery management system. Here are the rough, expected characteristics:
    Column 1 Column 2
    0 [th]length[th]width[th]depth[th]lbs[th]Wh[tr][td]17"[td]4.125"[td]7.5"[td]38 lbs[td]~700 Wh[tr][td]17.9"[td]4.26"[td]6.3"[td]32 lbs[td]1 850 Wh
    NOTE: packaging not included in LiON cell calculations. Estimated energy based upon weight of assembled batteries and this source, Battery energy storage in various battery types.

    There are still packaging challenges but saving 5 lbs and gaining about 2.6 greater range, a 13 mile radius, makes it well worth it. More importantly, being able to run half the pack to full exhaustion makes range anxiety moot.

    We won't know the thermal issues until after the cells arrive (shipping delayed), packaging, and testing. I'm expecting a 4-8F increase in temperature during a 15A discharge which is ~1C for the measured 17-18Ahr capacity over at Ecomodder (Daox picked some up at GreenCarExpo.) I'm intentionally designing the charge circuit to run at 0.33C (~5A) to further reduce the heat load. Having two strings means another option that a single string pack lacks. <wink>

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Nice post/project -- getting you 26-30miles in range is nice (FYI, a volt gets 40-50 in summer, and at slow speeds can get 60, so its still bit more range but a lot more in price ;-). Still a BEV with muscle-based range extender is a good idea. How efficient is it as a bicycle? Or is that just or an emergency? I've looked at the more bicycle shaped Ebikes but they did not have the range/speed I would want (work is 17 miles and 1000ft of elevation changes).


    Not good to run LiIon to full exhaustion.. I hope you mean running down to 15% SOC (i.e. effectively exhausted not literally). And for longevity, its best not to keep the second pack at full charge as spare, especially in an Huntsville summer. (Though if these are the LiFe pack from A123, maybe they can take it without degrading in AL's modest heat).

    Not clear to me why you want to run one down and then switch rather than run in parallel? Long term better to have lower C-rating on use/charge by sharing the load and also better to have less Depth-of-discharge. A simple voltage meter and a simple calibration will let you know when you need to return home..
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    drinn-as a bicycle these things suck. They're unweildy, difficult to pedal and just completely impractical without at least some electrical boost. I don't ride mine much any more, but when I did I found, eventually, that I really only pedalled on steep uphills when the little electric motor just couldn't maintain speed without some mechanical assistance.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The eBike is more of an electric moped with pedal assist. The A123 cells will hopefully provide range to work on one string with the second one provides 'an out' if I run out. The maximum current draw should be 15A so we're looking at less than 1C discharge and a 0.33C maximum charge rate. In balance mode, 1A, we're looking at less than 0.07C.

    I'm having difficultly finding detailed engineering data on these cells from A123. I'll try again on Monday but I'm not holding my breath. So one thing the eBike does is provide field metrics about how well these cells work. I'll also learn more about battery management systems. Dumping the data records will give metrics not otherwise available.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    Interesting post! Seeing the price of ebike-batteries, I was planning to do some research on the matter.

    I had to look twice to even SEE the pedals after reading you 'pedaled' home... When I read 'ebike' I was expecting something like this:
    [​IMG]
    (they are swamping our streets nowadays, first the elderly, logically, discovered and bought them, but now even teens are driving them...:confused: Well I guess better this than two-stroke mopeds...(driving age for mopeds is 16, cars is 18, so anyone between 16 and 18 needing to travel over 10 miles has to resort to those smelly, polluting death-machines)

    I still want one of these though... Coupled with today's battery technology like you are doing, it deserves a revival.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Thanks for the tech specs, Bob. That's quite a lot more than I'd be willing to spend to upgrade, esp. since I really don't use my ebike any more.
     
  10. okiebutnotfrommuskogee

    okiebutnotfrommuskogee Senior Member

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    You guys are trying too hard and spending too much money. I have three bikes with Curry motors on them. Originally the design used two 12v/12amp hour batteries in series for 24 volt operation. Range was about five miles if ridden without pedaling. The problem is that the batteries are pretty heavy.

    I wanted to change to lithium batteries, but didn't want to want to spend all that money and put up with all the charging and balancing problems. I knew there had to be an easier and better way. My answer to this problem is to use 18 volt lithium Ryobi drill batteries. This was easy because I already owned several Ryobi tools, drills, saws, etc. and several batteries.

    I purchased three new old stock Ryobi flash lights on Ebay for about $7.00 each. ( My plan was to use three batteries in parallel). These lights gave me the original sockets for the batteries. As it turned out my design only gave me room for two, so that is what I went with and still have one of the lights that I did not cut up. I installed the battery sockets in the bag on the rear luggage rack. I can use two batteries in their sockets and also carry two spares in the same bag.

    When the Ryobi Lithium batteries are fully charged they are actually 20 volts. So there is a little loss in power and top speed compared to the original (much heavier) lead acid batteries, but it is really worth the change to the (very light) Ryobi drill batteries. Charging is no problem because I just put them in the Ryobi charger. No problems with balance, etc.

    The good part is that they are the same batteries that I use in my drills and saws, etc. This morning I rode the bike eleven and a half miles. The first six and a half was mostly with pedaling and some use of the motor, maybe about a mile. Then I rode the last five miles on motor only with a little pedaling on a couple of short hills. I did all this motoring with the first set of batteries and never had to switch to the spares.

    Ryobi makes two sizes of these 18v lithium batteries the P103 is rated at 24 wh. and the P104 is rated at 48wh. I use the P104 batteries in the bike. They work great with my bike and when I got home I just put them in the charger one at a time and charged them back up. Now we are ready to build a project or go for another bike ride.

    I would be glad to post pictures, but I used up all of my picture posting space playing the car game.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    That had been my experience, only twice this year for useful, short errands:
    • April - rode to Chinese restaurant about 3 miles away at Airport Road. Airport Road is the nearest 'restaurant row' where I can get take-out to bring home.
    • July - my Fluke DC probe was not working so I dragged the battery to the eBike and ran to Radio Shack to get a replacement. The eBike made it a quick errand and I got back to work on the emergency inverter. Later I brought the battery back in the house for the charger.
    If I had to do this solo, I would have passed but Daox at Ecomodder had bought some and started analysis.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I appreciate the simple solution but it is also driven by the available eBike:
    Per 'specs,' each A123 cell is rated 65Wh and the flat, ploy format means maximum density. Five cells, just under 18V, should give 325Wh. My 30 cell, two-string pack might have 1,950Wh if the specs are correct and everything else works. (Somewhere Murphy is preparing a 'clue by four' and God is laughing.) But sometimes you have to 'look through the telescope.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Happy DAY!

    I was planning to spot weld the battery tabs to make a quality, high-current, interface. Then I read about a capacitive discharge system and another problem got solved.

    I need to fabricate an engine mount for my Dragonfly (airplane) and the traditional approach is to cut tube; spot weld, and; professional welder complete the welds. But it looks like a capacitive discharge welder will be the perfect spot welder for this task.

    A capacitive discharge, spot welder makes a small, localize, but mechanically welded joint. It only has to be strong enough to overcome gravity. If there is a problem, a hammer tap breaks the weld, reposition, and do it again. So I can easily assemble the two-part, engine mount, and get the dimensions exactly right.

    Synergy, when one solution solves more than one problem!

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Sad to say, the Chinese suppy at the original price dried up. There were some other, secondary grade cells but my eBike has a lot of vibration and temperature changes. I would never be able to tell if it were the lower grade cells or the eBike that might cause a problem. However, I have my original plan . . . some NHW11 modules.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Bob (and others thinking of a more traditional acting bike) I started another thread (not seeing this one right away) regarding the electric assist bike that we got just a few days ago:

    40 Miles per kwh - Our Olive Green Plug-In | PriusChat

    [​IMG]

    It'll hit 20mph with no assist. But I feel like a major dork just sitting there - not pedaling, when I could at least be doing a bit of mild cardio - so I tend to hump along at only about 30% effort - especially on these warm days we've been having. Now when I'm riding on my recumbent on a cold morning in the 50's - I'll go all out, just to keep myself warm. So when it ever does cool off, I'll do the same on this. I've only ridden the recumbent to work (20ish miles) a few time, and it's exhausting - especially on the trip home (appx 300' climb, and into the wind). I'm looking forward to trying it on this.

    The whole thing weighs around 50lbs, and pedal effort seems very similar to pedaling a traditional bike. The 36v lithium pack is compact enough that I'd consider getting a spare to take w/ me, just in case I wana go far - or get extra lazy. The packs are a bit pricey though, even on ebay. Hats off to Bob, for going to all the effort to build his own charger. Again, I'd go the lazy/easy route and simply buy one over the counter.

    .
     
  16. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    That is a good looking bike. How does the actual range compare to the advertised range?
     
  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    From their FAQ sheet:
    " . . . . Q. How far will a Pedego take me?
    A. This all depends on a few factors. Cycling on pedal assist along a straight road under normal conditions the battery should last about 15‐30 miles. Cycling up steep hills will obviously take more energy out of the battery and factors such as road surface, wind resistance, weight of the rider and tire pressure will affect your range. An optional additional battery pack can double your range . . . . ."

    Like I mentioned (maybe on the original thread), I've never just NOT pedaled - but I've gone on a measured/hilly 10 mile route, using about 50% of my effort, and the throttle/battery indicator (shows red-yellow-green) still showed green. I weigh about 215, too . . . . . so from my experience, on flat ground, someone in the 130 lb - 180 lb range could easily do 20 miles with NO pedal assist. But even on hot days - I still gotta do at least a little bit of peddling.
    .
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Going with the older, NHW11 modules changes the charger design:
    • Zener driven power transistors - at the upper limit, 8V, the 4W/module, 0.5A, would burn out ordinary zeners. Instead, it will turn on a power transistor and dump the shunt current into a power resistor, 5W.
    • two-rate, constant current, 2.5A and 0.5A - a discharged pack will take the higher current until one module reaches 8V. Then the shunt will kick in and the power supply will scale back to 0.5A. This will let each module reach 8V safely, reducing the temperature gain and heat. As each module reaches 8V, the shunt regulators will by-pass that module preventing overcharge. I will need one shunt stage per module unless I decide to treat them as pairs or triplets.
    • MSP430 control - this microprocessor will manage everything from sensing the current; pack voltage; and driving the switching, buck regulator. Software controls everything giving flexibility to optimize the charge and balance.
    As long as we start with balanced modules and the shunt regulator works as expected, I may be able to get by with just module pairs or triplet monitoring on the discharge. The nice thing is I have 38 perfectly fine . . . and free . . . NHW11 modules. This allows me to be a little rougher than ordinary, warranty supported batteries. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. Skoorbmax

    Skoorbmax Senior Member

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    I was next to a guy in traffic last year on a mountain bike or hybrid he had jacked up with electric and the thing was a monster. He was right up there at 40+ mph on electric alone and it accelerated very briskly at lights. Looked like a total ball to ride.
     
  20. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Let me know how that design works out, Bob. I would consider upgrading with something like that. Wouldn't be as good as the Li, of course, but better than Pb acid and sounds like it would be much muchless expensive. let me know what you'd charge to build one for me.