How can they improve the fuel economy of the next generation Pruis?

what is the price difference between a Yaris and a Prius?

 

I do. None of them care about cost per passenger-mile. The motorcyclists care about riding. The bicyclists/scooterists care about total energy use/pollution, or cost of ownership.

 

exactly. I am counting the driver as a passenger (or transported cargo) unless they are a cab driver or a parent driving kids around. Also, I am excluding recreational driving. I don't put cost per mile, or MPG, on the list when taking a weekend spin in the masserati.

 

I wasn't aware that the 3008 is larger than a Prius. Do you have dimensions ? I'd also like to hear your practical impression of the size difference. Can it haul more people, more comfortably ? Does the car replace the functionality say of a truck ? Would a taxi driver find the interior size differences worth $10,000 USD in terms of extra fares ?

I think you have mangled the price/performance/features argument a bit. Very few consumers do not take the price of the car into account when they decide on a car. The PC argument is that enviro considerations are no less valid a reason to pay more than say fat tyres. I do not dispute this point at all, but it is not black and white. $10,000 USD is a LOT of money to pay for a car that manages 60 mpg vs 50 mpg, and of course that is just for argument's sake; the Peugeot hybrid-diesel actually has worse emissions than a Prius.

Peugeot has to differentiate their car from Prius, so they (apparently) made it bigger, and they tout the car's higher low-end torque and max HP. All well and fine, except I suspect that most consumers who care about these aspects of a car will simply buy a big diesel and save a lot of money. Honda learned the hard way that powerful hybrids have a very small market. Diesel-hybrid advocates in some ways remind me of EV advocates: Their noise on the internet is way out of proportion to their actual market size. And of course ignorance such as PS displays just implies that the actual market for these cars is even smaller than tiny.

 

I read this proposal was struck down early and hard. Too bad, really, but the EU has its vested interests and lobbies just like the US.

 

At least in the UK, the price difference is 10,000 USD. Make that 510,000 km to break even, assuming you have a 0% apr loan for those half million km

 

Other than someone saying Diesels cannot work in hybrid installs for technical reasons. <grin>.

The advantage under discussion was increasing mileage in 2015 to match mileage increase from Prius II to Prius III, 45mpg to 50 mpg. No real disadvantages, cold start in extreme conditions possibly but modern Diesels with glow plugs fix that.

A modern, clean, quiet, reliable Diesel would do that.

Will Toyota go that route is another question but one more to do with marketing and nothing to do with technical feasibility. That question has been answered with many current hybrids using Diesel engines.

 

Comparably equipped Golf gas vs. Diesel is about $2,500. Battery technology currently available for 2015 build would seem to add at least as much.

 

At home I use SANYO Eneloop AA NiMH rechargable batts which have low discharge rates. But the Pb acid batt is quite small in the Prius....limited returns I would think.

 

For the sake of argument, lets say that one person exists and is not a figment of your imagination or misunderstanding.

I certainly don't care. It was not my opinion, or that of any person here who has a clue. Yet even if half of the people here were that clueless, you now have examples of diesel-hybrid cars that clearly show that your earlier guess (you said 30% better than Prius IIRC) of how carbon emissions in a diesel ICE would be far superior to a petrol ICE in hybrid car applications is wrong.

What do you have against facts ?

 

Comparing different cars is not real world. You would want to compare identical cars, one with Diesel, one without, to get mileage comparison. It's typically about 25% mileage increase with the Diesel.

Diesel would be an easy way, and possibly the lease expensive way, for 2015 Prius to upgrade to 60 mpg.

 

Let's just say I quoted them above where they claim Diesels cannot be used in hybrid application. You claim none of the Diesel critics in this discussion make that claim. I quoted them making that claim. End of that chapter of the story of Diesel Prius.

 

Real world is choosing between cars that can actually be driven. In this real world, Prius carbon emissions are markedly superior to the Peugeot Diesel-hybrid.

 

Correct. Golf gas vs. Golf Diesel is a good comparison of cost and of mileage. EVdriver was trying to compare different cars with different engines which is not useful.

 

PS,
For consumers who place a high priority on carbon and pollutant emissions, who want a car in the size range of between a Prius and a Peugeot 3008 diesel-hybrid, and are able to compare two numbers, would you agree that the Prius beats the Peugeot handily ? Here are some numbers, taken from EVdriver's post:

Prius, from model year 2011: Overview: Toyota - Prius - Spritmonitor.de
Average fuel consumption (US fuel economy): 4,95 l/100 km (47,51 US MPG)

Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4: Overview: Peugeot - 3008 - Spritmonitor.de
Average fuel consumption (US fuel economy): 6,12 l/100 km (38,43 US MPG)


Notice, I don't even have to remind you that the Prius costs 10,000 USD less than the 3008 in the UK market.

 

Toyota has picked the corrrect philosophy (least polluting) in my view.

I am interested in the idea of supplemental preheat needs for start-up.
There are at least three preheat needs:
(1) engine block warming (BTW did anyone mention under-hood insulation like some (efusco?) did)
(2) Heating passenger compartment
(3) Catalytic converter preheat

So I am thinking give hybrids and EV's a small propane cyclinder to generate supplemental heat.
Any way to electrically preheat cat converter?

 

wjtracy,
The cat heats up quite quickly in the G3 HSD if you block the radiator air intake. I say this based on my experience of being able to enter EV mode within a couple of minutes.

 

The US used to have leaded gasoline and carburetors also. Cost of Polution control devices are the big enemy of diesel. Since a large portion of the hybrid market sells on low tailpipe emissions, I find it unlikely people will pay the premium for a diesel hybrid that pollutes more, when gasoline can do so well.

The tax proposal doesn't fully kick in until 2023, and there is a likelihood that it will not pass. I don't think anyone designing a car for 2015 will worry about tax changes.

Still the odds are long against diesel hybrids. Two of the prominent makers of diesel, VW group and BMW are doing gasoline hybrids not diesels, and vw has said it is because of costs. Since toyota's hybrid market is mainly asia and america, I can not see them developing a diesel hybrid.

 

IMO, a plug would be better than a propane cylinder for all three. Once on the road, regen electric could be used (avoiding the HV battery round trip).

 

My bet for the single most promising emerging tech to increase efficiency is TEG. That is solid state solutions to turn waste heat to electricity. 1st gen is targeted to increase fuel economy by 10%, and later gen tech up to a 25% bump in fuel economy.

Along with other expected improvements like turbo-charged DI, less piston friction, less weight, and improved aero, I think the best non-plug MPG car in 10 years will approach 100 mpg. I imagine 55% throughput efficiency and 180 wh/mile average energy consumption. Works out to 18.37/0.18 = 102 mpg.