GM Discounts Volt by $10,000, 3x-4x more than US average

I believe GM is using the US FLEET average.

 

There are incentives for building refueling stations and just using CNG and hydrogen as a fuel. Like the battery plant incentive, they are for businesses. I think its fair to have something for the individual. Besides, 'build it and they will come' isn't actually true. If the subdisized battery plant closes because no one is buying enough batteries, then the funds would have wasted.

correct

Has it occurred to you that those aren't the main goals? Most of the people buying seem to be more motivated in reducing their use of gasoline. Their personal reasons are varied. To the government, it reduces the amount of oil imports. Which is a benefit to the trade deficit and national security.

The cars are meeting your goals. Electric motors are more efficient than a gasoline ICE. Wall to wheels, the current plug ins to better than an ICE. To the wall might be different. The loses for electricity improve with more efficient power plants, and improvements to the grid. With renewable power, the losses are a fair price to pay for not using a depleting resource. The pre-pump loses for gasoline are only going to get worse as time moves on. The crude is getting harder to reach and dirtier. Tar sand and oil shale needs to be converted into crude. An energy intensive process. Or it'll be made from coal.

The Volt's gas economy is better than ICEs in its class, and most other hybrids. Toyota did a great job with the Prius. Only the C-max/Fusion will be considered close to its EPA numbers.

The hot spots for plug in sales have grids cleaner than the national average. The grid elsewhere will improve as old coal plants become too costly to run. There are options for those who want to use even cleaner electric. There's the clean emissions.

Practicality of BEVs will improve with longer ranges. Thus the subsidies for the batteries, to help make that happen. The first generation Volt is about as practical as the first generation Prius in terms of space. Compact cars aren't used to move 5 people daily, but 4 seats can be a limit for some potential buyers. Improvements to batteries and battery management might make a 5 seat Volt possible in the second generation.

The developments spurned on by the subsidies will also be applied to ICE only hybrids and even FCVs.

If the LS became available before Toyota's phase out of credits, it would have been $1800. Fuel economy was used to determine the hybrid credit, because all their energy came from gasoline. So the only way they could reduce petroleum imports was through increased fuel economy. And yet power hybrids still got some.

Again, the credit is about the battery. Its size has direct relation to the amount of electricity available to reduce gasoline use. Perhaps there should be a minimum EV efficiency requirement. Of the current plug ins, only the Transit Connect EV(no longer available), CODA, and Karma are likely to not meet any proposed limit.

Some of the hybrids that didn't qualify for the full credit might of with a larger pack.

The Prius PHV originally would've had $0 credit. The law was amended for it. With its smaller pack, it doesn't generate as much battery demand as cars with larger packs.

The Prius PHV needs to sell three, maybe more, times as many than the Volt to have the same impact on the expansion of battery manufacturer. At $7500, tax payers would be greatly over paying for its battery. That is an issue you have with the amount the Volt gets?

The Volt is a practical, efficient, and clean vehicle. It might not be to you, but cars aren't designed for a single individual.

Then write your congress critter.

To be fair, the price Lutz stated might just be for the cells, and not include the materials and time assembling them into the pack.

 

They are not 4 seaters (which I specifically stated). Comparing it to Cruze Eco would've been a good choice.

 

I don't think those traded in Prius are being sent to the crusher. They are most likely going into a second hand market and displacing a lower MPG vehicle. I think it's a fair statement that each NEW Volt introduced into the US fleet retires a fleet average MPG vehicle. Actually, I suspect it more often retires a below average MPG fleet vehicle.

 

Because a 5 seat VW Jetta wouldn't be a good comparable for someone driving a Chevy Volt since the VW has 1-too-many seats?

I'm guessing you included "4 seats" in your definition only to exclude otherwise comparable ICE vehicles. Fox News etc. make statements of this kind to intentionally mislead their viewers who don't parse the claim carefully enough.

 

I feel the incompetence and BS.

 

$7500 tax credit for a vehicle that seems to be averaging 200MPG
$2500 tax credit for a vehicle that seems to be averaging 100MPG

seems equitable.

 

Only because you have trouble with arithmetic. Using your inflated MPG numbers,

ICE car: 0.04 gallons a mile
Prius: 0.02 gallons a mile
PIP: 0.01 gallons a mile
Volt: 0.005 gallons a mile

So, the taxpayer pays $2500 to save 0.01 gallons a mile through PIP consumption compared to the Prius that saves 0.02 gallons a mile without any subsidy, and another $5000 to save an additional 0.005 gallons per mile through Volt consumption.

Yes, I know the Prius was subsidized for a couple of years in the 2nd Gen Prius run. Worked out to be $600 for me in a high tax bracket. Figure $600 to err on your side for 0.02 gallons a mile savings.

Cost to the taxpayer to "save" oil with a Volt compared to a Prius: (7500/0.035)/(600/0.02) = 715% more.
This of course is assuming that a Volt has the same road life as a Prius. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Bloody boondoggle, the Volt. Truly a bridge to nowhere.

 

Short answer, the leasing company since they own the vehicle.

If you look at the lease math, some of the $7500 tax credit is left in the residual, a buffer (if needed) that can be stripped by the leasing company and allows them to sell the vehicle for less than the computed residual value. If the lessee wants to convert the lease to a purchase, they can pay the residual value, or negotiate something less towards the end of the lease term.

Again, keep in mind that the leasing company is NOT GM.

 

Emission was one the goals. The requirements for the plugin tax credit said: To be certified for the credit by the manufacturer, the vehicle must be treated as a motor vehicle for purposes of title II of the Clean Air Act. Title II is about emission.

If one of the goal was to reduce gasoline consumption and increase energy security, why were hybrids excluded?

I can understand the trade deficit. The choices were to either hurt the Japan (hybrids) or the OPEC (oil consumption) because Japanese hybrids cut down oil consumption. We chose to hurt the trade with our ally (Japan). Perhaps our real ally is the OPEC... by looking at the result.

Volt's national average emission is 260 g/mi (tailpipe and beyond). That's about the same as 42 MPG hybrid (no-plug). If the Volt gets $7,500 tax credit, so should CT200h, Prius, v, c, PHV, C-MAX hybrid, Energi, etc...

• Volt (compact) will consume 1,460 gallons over its lifetime (150k miles with 36% on gas @37MPG).
• Prius PHV will consume 2,135 gallons (150k miles with 71.2% on gas 50MPG).
• 50 MPG Prius will consume 3,000 gallons.
• 42 MPG (many are midsize) will consume 3,571 gallons.

1/3 of gasoline is domestic and 2/3 import.

• Volt will import 964 gallons
• Prius PHV - 1,409 gallons
• 50 MPG Prius - 1,980 gallons
• 42 MPG hybrid - 2,357 gallons

From the energy security point of view, the difference between Volt and regular hybrids are 1,016 to 1,393 gallons per car. That constitutes one getting $7,500 and the other (mostly bigger cars) $0?

The difference narrows down to 445 gallons with Prius PHV. That constitutes one getting $7,500 and the other $2,500? This is with the electricity consumption, emission and vehicle size ignored.

Then, include the emission as one of the tax credit criteria! Why the battery size?

Luxury hybrids and SUV hybrids got less according to the MPG gains vs the non-hybrids. Why is sporty luxury Karma getting the same $7,500 as the Leaf? Why is it getting more than the cleaner middle-class plugins (Prius PHV, C-MAX Energi)?

The battery size is one of the goal. Reducing emission through the Clean Air Act is another.

It did qualify when the prototype had 5.2 kWh pack. The production model has 4.4 kWh yet provides more EV range.

Again, I disagree with the notion that a plugin car with the biggest battery pack will be the most successful. If Volt and Prius PHV gets the same amount of tax credit, Prius PHV will be in much higher demand. Your logic is flawed.

How is having more battery in plugin car good for America's trade deficit? Volt's battery cells are made in Korea.

If three Prius PHV and 1 Volt are sold, they would have sold about the same battery capacities.

However, Prius PHVs would cut about 8x gasoline consumption and emission.

Matrix 1.8L auto emission is 395 g/mi. Prius PHV is 210 g/mi. Replacing four Matrixes with four PHV would reduce 740 g/mi. That translate to 12,490 gallons saved (over 150k miles).

Cruze Eco 1.4L auto emission is 358 g/mi. Volt is 260 g/mi. Replacing a Cruze Eco with a Volt would reduce 98 g/mi. That translate to 1,654 gallons saved.

It is as clean as a 42 MPG gas car. Good for a compact 4 seater. Is it a good plugin hybrid? No. Does it deserve the $7,500 tax credit? No, IMHO.

The tax credit alone would not allow the lease down to $200-$250 per month. There must be other incentives.

 

No, it is Ally, a quasi-government entity run by 'old' GM that funnels taxpayer money into (yet again) sub-prime loans to sell GM cars.

If you cannot see that this is the same old, same old, you are either blind, stupid, or both.

Well actually worse than before, because now foolish investors and bond holders are not picking up some of the tab.

 

I wonder if the leasing companies the banks that the government bailed out.

 

Do you believe there is some hidden conspiracy by the leasing companies to promote the Volt over the Prius?

 

didn't the government bail out just about every bank in the world?

 

I don't know enough. Would love to see the facts to clear it up.

 

It seems like you want to believe that there is a conspiracy, despite the absence of any facts to support such a conspiracy. Some would consider that irrational.

If you take a look at some of the lease deals, the facts, you will find they are pretty straight forward and there is no conspiracy. Just plain old banker's math.

 

All that requirement states is that a PHV needs to meet to the same requirements as all other ICE vehicles on the road, and the credit doesn't apply to off road plug ins. If a manufacturer wanted to make a bin 10 PHV, they could do so and the car would still qualify for the credit. So, no it isn't about emissions. State and other incentives are a different story.

Already answered here and elsewhere. They are now established in the market after about 9 years of incentives.

Huh?
Your own math shows the Volt saving more gas than the Prius. BEVs save even more. Except for a few exceptions like Hawaii, all our electricity is fueled domestically. How does reducing gas consumption through electricity help OPEC.

The hybrid credits ended nearly two years ago. It doesn't appear to have hurt the hybrid market.

The law was written to help plug ins get into the market. Battery size was chosen because battery cost was the biggest hurdle to affordability.

The EPA didn't have a standardized test for plug in efficiency when the law was written. They would just been pulling something out of their if they used electric consumption as a criteria. Most likely it would have been by someone who didn't want plug ins to succeed and unattainable.

Emission. isn't a goal.

Vehicle size was considered. Comercial vehicles have higher credit limits. $10,000, $15,000, and $20,000 if IIRC.

Maybe because the bill this is wrapped up in includes tax credits for home wind, solar, and fuel cells. Plus various other laws supporting alternate fuels and cleaner energy production.

Again, not about emissions, and the battery chosen since it is the most costly part.

See above.

Toyota knew the rules going in.

Their logic was to reduce the cost of the battery to support plug ins and battery development.

And the entire Prius PHV is made in Japan and Asia. Same with the Prius.

Its an assumption that 3 P-PHVs would get sold to every Volt. The car has fallen short of its sales goals here and in Japan.

I'm not too keen on logical fallacies, is this a Straw man?

I don't think shoppers of either plug in would buy those ICE cars instead. The proper comparison is with the cars traded in or what the buyer would have actually bought instead. For the P-PHV, I guess it would be the Prius, and others have far better info for the Volt.

Finally, carbon isn't the sole emission. There are others with more immediate impact. There is also merit in removing a car's emissions out of a population center to the power plant, like L.A.

 

The bailout is done? Says who. There's still murmuring that GM will still go under. I duno. I don't see how GM can possibly fail, now that the Fed's (we the people) own so much GM stock. The Fed's buy Air Craft Carriers, Stealth planes, Nuke Subs, ad nausium, simply by printing more paper - which floods the phony paper money market - making YOUR retirement/wealth amount even more teeny ... making YOUR social security more teeny. If you or I printed instant wealth (QE 1 QE 2 QE 3 ad nausium) we'd be on our way to jail, for running a ponzi scheme. As Greece goes ... as the EU goes ... as GM goes ... so goes the nation. But don't worry ... which ever Obom-mney that wins ... I'm sure they'll fix things.

 

Ok, I get that you are ticked off by the bailout and agree that they are incredibly distasteful. Frankly, I am not sure if the car bailouts should have been made or not. Loosing both GM and Crystler, and then quite likely Ford would have been a disaster.

That being said, I don't see why it would make you even more sick to your stomach in what ever way the Volt is selling, good or bad?
Personally, I think the technology in the Volt will do for GM what the tech in the Prius did for Toyota. But if it doesn't, so what, it has no affect on weather or not the loan took place. It did.

 

See my reply elsewhere as well. 4% adoption rate is not good enough. We need something like the 20% Japanese achieved.

You do realize that the cost to tax payer for 3 Prius PHVs is the same as 1 Volt right? 3 Prius PHV saves 8x more gas and emission than 1 Volt.

It is clear hybrid incentives provide the best bang for the buck.

This is from EPA PHEV site:

Less Greenhouse Gas (GHG) Emissions. PHEVs are expected to emit less GHG than conventional vehicles, but the amount generated depends partly on the fuel used at electrical power plants—nuclear and hydroelectric plants are cleaner than coal-fired power plants.​

It looks like the goal was not to exceed conventional vehicle GHG emission. Emission was in fact one of the goals.

Yea, any vehicle that weights below 14,000 lbs are treated the same. That's why we are seeing 5,300 lbs Fisker Karma qualifying $7,500.

Do we need any more reasons why the plugin tax credit bill needs to be rewritten or amended?