C-Max hybrid to get 47mpg both city/hwy

Not at all. If Gen3 has the same Gen2 engine and weight more than it should get lower MPG. I can't wait to see the BSFC graph of C-Max hybrid gas engine. I doubt there will be a significant difference in efficiency between them.

Aerodynamic and weight would play a bigger role than the tires. I think clever engine shutdowns from path recognition reversed those penalties. Imagine what a lighter and more aerodynamic car can do with path recognition.

 

So obviously Ford has chipped every CMax to do this. Am getting slightly off topic, but does anyone know whether Ford is leveraging this (chipping) for other stuff, like remote vehicle unlock (ala SmartAlert) or provide detailed data on trip info online, perhaps in a report, overlaid with fuel consumption stats?

Would be cool to have a Nike+ like website to see your car's fuel efficiency 'fitness'.

 

What we know, proven by Toyota, that the weight difference was not a reason as the Prius II weighs but but gets less mileage than the Prius III.

 

I think we both are agreeing. You can't just look at the weight to judge the MPG. You need to take account of all the variables.

If the weight difference is so great, something else must be done to compansate.

 

uhm, lol.

So you are trying to say that if you put extra 500lbs to Prius G3 that it wouldnt get worse mileage?

So why would you defend weight of Ford and Chevy vehicles? Whatever C-Max gets, it would get a lot better if it was lighter weight. They PR about lion batteries and their lightweight, but then have substantially heavier vehicle.

I know few people posting here want everyone to like american companies, but things need to be said - it is heavy car and it affects MPG. I wish Ford has worked harder on making it lighter - not lightest, but just not the worst in the class.

So yes, weight affects mpg... directly. It is one of the most important parts of equation. So if C-Max weighted 200-300lbs less, people would get a lot better real life mpg. Instead Ford recycles old platforms that are too heavy and then people wonder why EPA's are not being shown in real life. Chevy is exactly the same.

 

I think the point is that weight is not as critical a consideration in a hybrid with regen. The challenge for designers of hybrids is balancing the cost of manufacture with the cost of operation. If a lighter vehicle costs more to manufacture and maintain than it saves in gasoline and insurance, it is at a disadvantage to it's competitors.

I have a fairly light bicycle, but I could spend a few thousand more to lighten it a few ounces, put on thinner tires, or I could skip the backpack with airpump and tools. I would end up walking more, but I would be carrying a lighter bike.

 

It all depends on how it gained the weight. If it gained it in battery pack, electronics and a plug then it might get better. Weight is only a single factor. Look at the prius phv versus the aqua. They get the same combined mileage but the phv can use much less gas and weighs what 600lbs more.

The extra weight is in the rest of the vehicle, not in the battery. The more powerful battery does help. Rolling resistance and drag are higher than the prius v but epa fuel economy better. The thing needs to be taken as a package.

Here is a discussion of non hybrid s and why despice the extra weight the really small cars do worse on the highway.

Why Don't Pint-Sized Cars Get Better Gas Mileage? - Popular Mechanics
Here is what gm did to improve the spark from its asian roots most of it added weight.
2013 Chevrolet Spark Test Drive - Popular Mechanics

The spark is much lighter even after this than the prius, so by your logic the prius should be getting worse real world milage There is more to this than meets the eye.​

I don't know many cross over hybrids. Te c-max seems to handle better, accelerated better, and have better fuel economy than the only other claimed hybrid cross over the prius v. Weight seems to not have helped the v, so what is your point. The prius v has other features that some may like more than the c-max, but weight is not an advantage for it. You need to look at what weight does before jumping to wrong headed conclusions.

Are you saying when I have 2 passengers my prius highway mileage drops like a rock? Stop the non-sense. We have a few samples of tests, and better epa. Stop pretending that the c-max gets really bad fuel economy.

 

You've brought up something that has bothered me for years, the claims that extra weight means poor fuel economy to regenerative braking hybrids. As has been pointed out by 'austingreen', regenerative braking on flat-land, in effect, eliminates the wasted brake energy. Our Prius has gone 150,000 miles without replacing the brake pads and shoes and the evidence suggests we don't really know when they might need replacing.

That changes a little in hilly or mountainous areas as the potential energy changes can easily exceed the traction battery capacity. But experience suggests keeping the engine in peak, efficiency power ranges is significantly more important than vehicle mass. . . . You go up the grade slower.

Bob Wilson

 

also keep in mind that "traction battery capacity" has at least three major factors. Storage capacity, charge rate capacity, and discharge rate capacity.

braking regen can be limited by charge rate capacity.
uphill EV speed can be limited by discharge rate capacity.

dynamically matching the ICE to mitigate these limits is the hybrid designer's challenge.

EDLCs will probably take over the regen role.

Electric double-layer capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Noting Toyota added weight to Prius and got better mileage so comment that CMAX weighed a little more than Prius was not particularly relevant.

 

Please, I've been here nearly as long as you. Didn't post as often, and it was as Shellyt, but I think that name changed on all the old posts when Danny changed my screen name.

I do admit to a fondness for Ford. I never had a major problem with the Fords I've owned. Same can be said of the GMs we had as I grew up. But Ford did make an offering for fuel economy in the Escape hybrid years ago with Escape. There was even rumors of DI turbo engine offering for the Fusion along with the hybrid Fusion before the hybrid was on the road. Almost going under delayed their product roll out, but the new leadership has improved Ford.

The Prius is a great car, but I bought it for being a Prius, not a Toyota. Most of Toyota's offerings I find on the dull side. Scion had my interest until the Hummeresque bloat of the xB.

I think fanaticism is a major force for ill in the world. It's harmless in car models and brands, but it is still fun to poke the fanboys a little.

My original comment was because Ford has 450+ patents on the C-max, and over 100 of them is over the path prediction ability. So Toyota very well might have to license from Ford to put it into the Prius. On the flip, Toyota might have patents on the exhaust heat recovery which kept Ford from using it.

As to straining the battery, Ford hasn't had a problem like Honda with their NiMH batteries. It's probably safe to say they did their homework with the lithium batteries now used in order to avoid any problems. Specially after what happened with Honda and their hybrid batteries.

Which is what probably plagues most eco turbos real world fuel economy.

 

The regenerative brake system Mazda is first offering in the Mazda6 uses a capacitor.

Do you want to compare the C-max engine to the Prius, or the the one in the old Fusion hybrid?

The C-max hybrid received some aero tweaks. It isn't much worse than the Prius v (0.30 v. 0.29). Weight needs help, but there other concerns that go into design decisions. The C-max has been available for years over seas. Sticking with the parts and materials used in it keep R&D costs and time for the hybrid down. Which translates to quicker time to market with a lower price tag.

Ford, and all, are well aware that lowering the weight will help fuel economy in all types of vehicles. We'll see the weight savings in the next generation.

 

I test drove one and it was a nice ride. I was surprised when they discontinued the hybrid but to some extent, the C-MAX hybrid is a downsized version.

I agree. They are focused on engineering and efficient production and reducing the numbers of similar but redundant parts. I have no style or handling skills but the Ford cars 'fit' and 'handle' more like North Americans enjoy compared to our Toyotas. I don't fault Toyota as bland has its own appeal to techno-owners.

Bob Wilson

 

Edmunds Insideline tested the Prius v when it came out and recently the 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid.

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/prius-v/2012/2012-toyota-prius-v-full-test-and-video.html

http://www.insideline.com/ford/c-max-hybrid/2013/2013-ford-c-max-hybrid-full-test-and-video.html

 

For what it's worth I have had my C-MAX for almost 3 weeks now. I have just over 2000 miles on it. So far I have an indicated 43.3 mpg but actual is about 42. It was starting to get better but it is has turned colder. I took a trip on the freeway today and when I got off my C-MAX indicated 38.1 mpg for that leg. I later took that same trip in my HCHII and it was 45.3 mpg indicated. The C-MAX computer has been a bit optimistic so it was probably closer to 37 actual. The Civic has been a little low so it was probably closer to 46. It was a few degrees warmer when I drove the Civic. My whole trip which included some city driving ended up at 43.3 on the C-MAX and 45.2 on the Civic. The best day I have in the C-MAX so far was an indicated 45.3 mpg but I have had trips of 49-50.

So for real life for me anyway the 47 mpg C-MAX doesn't look like it will do as well as the 42 mpg combined(after the 2008 EPA adjustment) Civic. Of course, the C-MAX is still "breaking in". Those are Fords words but who knows, it might get a little better. Most of my driving though is highway. If it was the other way around the C-MAX would probably be doing better.

 

The data so far suggests:

• severe non-linear effect(s) - between cold operation and reported mileage, the data suggests at least one, possibly two "knee in the curve"

Now this next hypothesis, no more an improbable wild speculation, is that the adaptive SOC management might have a default or initial setting optimized for an EPA driving profile. The paper on adaptive SOC management reports a ~5% fuel efficiency gain in the single major grade, Boston test case. If we take 43.3*1.05 = 45.5 MPG, this is not enough to match the EPA rating but it is nearly half-way. "Teaching" a particular EPA profile, say with a series of practice runs, might be all that it takes.

To test this hypothesis, I would map out a 10 mile long, loop that has a significant number of hills. After driving 20 minutes to warm-up the car, park it at the start/end point. Then drive the car on the loop at a cruise control, constant speed, park, record the MPG, and turn off the car. Repeat this protocol three to five times recording the ending MPG each time. Always turn off the car for each loop.

The expected results should be a series of improving MPGs with each loop. In an ideal world, enough loops would be run until the last three loops have nearly identical MPG values. This would give a clue as to how fast the adaptive SOC reaches an optimum solution.

Another variation would be to have a second loop and then see if more than one optimized SOC profile is learned. If I wrote the specifications, I would want enough memory for up to four distinct routes:

1. Commute to work
2. Lunch trip out
3. Lunch trip back
4. Commute to home

A hypothesis needs testing. This is how I would try to quantify adaptive SOC.

Bob Wilson

 

I think these are good numbers, even with the occasional high 30's of short trips which will average with higher mileage. If you average around 42-45 mpg right now, it will certainly improve after a few thousand miles.

 

most important is that you are happy with the car

 

I've addressed this elsewhere, but:
Heavy footed tested may skew the heavier C-max farther down than the Prius v.

And, the biggee, there was a more than 20 degree F difference between the days these cars were tested. (Climate conditions reported in the sidebar with test results) The Prius v was at a pleasant upper 60's, and the C-max was at a low 90's. They both use more efficient AC's than most cars. That doesn't change the fact that one having it run and the other not will be a variable unaccounted for in the reported mpg numbers of the two numbers. Even if the Insideline reviewers decided to sweat it out with the C-max, the temperature difference will still have an impact on vehicle difference in efficiency.

Flipping through a Motor Trend this weekend, I came across this tidbit in an article; the rolling resistance of new tires will drop 10% to 12% in the first thousand miles. There are many posts here about fuel economy dropping after replacing the tires.

Modern manufacturing means the break in protocols for an engine are a thing of the past, but there is still a break in period. It very well might just be for the driver to become fully aware of the car's quirks, but improving seems to be the norm for new hybrids over time.

Have you reset the lifetime mpg since receiving the car? Another C-max owner suggested resetting it, since it may be factoring in all the short shuffling the car went through at the dealers and during delivery.

 

C-Max hybrid may be more prone to the low temp since it lacks the Exhaust Heat Recovery system. Gen3 HSD introduced EHR to address extreme cold.

More aggressive driving was also addressed with the very wide efficient BSFC rpm range and keeping the weight low. I have yet to see the C-Max hybrid 2.0L atkinson cycle BSFC map but if it has a short window just good enough to ace EPA cycle, real world MPG will suffer.

I am hopeful to see the real world MPG as high as the EPA rated figure for this awesome full hybrid.