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The Sun Controls Earths Climate not CO2

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by mojo, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    The Earth is entering a cooling period "Little Ice Age"for the next 20-30 years.
    It will soon be very evident whether CO2 plays much of a role or not.

     
  2. ProximalSuns

    ProximalSuns Senior Member

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    That explains the rising temperatures for the last 50 years due to increased CO2 from burning of fossil fuels and destruction of planetary ecosystem.
     
  3. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Cue Piers Corbin,,,5,4,3,,,,
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Dipsticks are good at not just measuring your engine's oil level, but dipsticks are also good at indicating the waning influence of big oil's great deception engine.... Every day fewer people buy into their BS, as well as buy as much of there gas. And those who still represents big oil's climate denial have to act dumber and dumber to make their dishonest argumet noticeable...
     
  5. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Greenhouse gases help retain energy from solar radiation. If you reduce the incident solar radiation less energy is absorbed by the Earth. There isn't anything new or startling in the OP's revelation.

    If indeed we do enter another ice age, then higher levels of greenhouse gases could be useful. "If" is the operative word, and it's a very big if.

    Tom
     
  6. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Heres another contention I have.
    Who the f thought up the oil company supports deniers meme.
    Its so stupid it makes me cringe.
    This whole AGW scheme was devised to promote Cap and Trade by Ken Lay of ENRON.
    Enron would be the biggest energy conglomerate today if his plan met fruition (and they werent proven to be thieves and unprofitable otherwise).
    Sure the oil companies gave a few hundred million to Deniers.
    As opposed to the $100 BILLION spent on AGW research.
    The oil companies probably gave AGW believers as much or more .
    But the thing that makers me cringe is that people who state that
    (big oil funds denial) are so stupid, they have no idea of how the market works.
    The oil companies will make as much or more $ if there is a Cap and trade or carbon tax enacted.
    They dont give a flying F about a tax.
    In reality it would probably increase their profits.
    ADD taxes and add a bit ,or a lot more for scarcity due to disruption.
    But why I think AGW believers are the dumbest is you dont realize this is an agenda pushed by the banks.
    Goldman and Stanley Morgan and whoever else who are lobbying to get this C and T passed to create new income streams and new derivatives .
    The insurance industry isnt even bothering to question the "science"
    They are raising rates with glee.
    You guys are a bunch of sheep.
    About to be fleeced by the banks.






     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I see you have forgotten to take your pills, again.
     
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  8. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Prove me wrong.
    At least Ill know you have brain function.
     
  9. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    It seems that the only one that ever mentions "cap and trade" is Mojo!

    Icarus
     
  10. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    OK now its "Carbon Tax"
    No wonder it wasnt mentioned in the debates.
    No banking lobby for it.
    Now its just a revenue stream for the Feds .
    But California is another matter.
     
  11. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    A reasonable carbon tax, properly levied can have multiple benefits, regardless of you "view " of AGW! A tax raises the price, inducing conservation. The revenue generated can be directed towards RE and other carbon reduction plans. some of the revenue can be directed to low income energy asst. as well as further conservation, mass transit etc. Not to mention, reductn in carbon fuel use here in N. America leads to longer term energy security, and indeed national security.

    or we can just blame it all on the sun,, as Stevie Wonder would say!

    Icarus
     
  12. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    A carbon tax will tax the retired, unemployed,poor and middle class at the same rate as the rich.
    You are like the Republicans WET DREAM.
    Someone begging (by noble cause)to make the poor and middle class pay for tax cuts to the rich.
     
  13. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Did you not read wht I suggested we do with the revenue,, including rebates for low income, for weatherinzation, mass transit, making it revenue neutral below some threshold? Perhaps to credits on sliding scale up to resonable middle income levels. bottom line, $5/gal gas is only $2.50 if you drive a a Prius instead of a Subaru for example. Burn half as much end up paying less, in the net.

    Prime example, the price of heating oil was very expensive last year, so my step son (at my urging) got a energy audit, and spent ~$6 insulating his house. This year, he has burned about 1/2 as much oil degree day/degree day. it will pay off for him in three winters, even assuming no price increase in heating oil.

    Icarus
     
  14. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Do you really believe that will happen to collected revenue?
    In California Jerry Brown has already hinted income from C and T will benefit (unrelated to environmental )areas he stole money from last year.
    We will get high speed rail ,so that will be nice.
    That will help cure AGW Im sure .

     
  15. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    ^Only if you design and execute it properly! Can it be done,,of course! Will it be done, most likely not.
    That said, no one (in a position to have an effect) is actually talking about such a tax scheme. nobody is talking about cap and trade at some national level either.

    Icarus
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    More youtube. Sigh. Not visible to me. anyway, just to review, solar cycle looks like this, and global air T looks like the other. Two files attached; you can figure it out.

    Meanwhile there is no doubt that all the earth's energy comes from the sun (excepting the 0.1 or 1.0 watt/m2 geothermal). All of the interesting gases in the atmosphere, including CO2, decide how much of that solar energy can get back out. Perhaps this is a bit subtle; I don't know. But it precludes statements like' the sun controls climate' from having much meaning.

    We'll here it again though, no doubt. Again and again and again...
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    You know, it is pretty simple. Double the insulation in your attic, don't reduce the BTU input net (not the thermostat setting) and see if your house gets warmer. Increase the insulation enough, (without reducing the input) and the house will keep getting hotter and hotter, nearly regardless of OAT.

    If one accepts the notion that CO2 and related gasses have an insulating effect on the planet, and if you accept the fact that humans ARE the cause of increased concentrations of CO2 (and other gasses), how can one not possibly accept the likelyhood that this increased insulation is causing the atmosphere to warm?

    Isn't it a pretty simple matter to model the insulation value of the atmosphere at various concentrations, calculate in average yearly insolation worldwide, figure energy lost to space and come up with a BTU count as to how many fewer BTUs are escaping on an annual basis?

    I can do my house quite easily, knowing the thermal input (BTUs from her sources, including occupants and the sun) and heqt loss through the shell component by component knowing the Delta between inside and out.

    Icarus
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    These groups have no more right to waste energy than the rich. They have no more right to pollute than the rich. Or as in your specific case, they have no more right to be stupid, lazy and ignorant than the rich.

    When you are using less energy than me, I'll listen to your whining about additional carbon taxation on your consumption with a more sympathetic ear.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Icarus, for the atmosphere, it has not turned out to be easy to model yet. Besides IR-absorptive gases, there are aerosols and clouds that each appear to have several (sometimes contradictory) functions. And then you have the oceans sloshing about, sinking more heat some years and sourcing it in others. These sloshes (El Nino, PDO, among others) make the air T sequence quite other than linear monotonic increasing.

    This is grist for the mill, for those insisting that if there is not a linear relationship (on the time period of their choosing) that there is NO relationship.

    And we'll hear it again and again...
     
  20. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    I'm more interested in the myriad of all life on this planet, more interested in how this huge diversity of living conscious beings are being killed off to meet our so-called basic human needs.

    As far as I'm concerned humans on both sides of the global warming fight are mostly people who haven't the slightest clue what life on earth is about, nor do they show any concern for this planet's diverse life forms that exists beyond their own clueless distracted selves...

    And to take it one step further, as well as bring it back to the original post, the fluctuation of the sun's fire as it cycles has a huge influence on the health of our planet.

    And yes the sun could easily counteract the effects of our global warming if it was a living conscious being that cared about us and raised us as its own... which can not yet be disproven... At the same time the sun can't stop us from wrongly killing everything that's not human and that's a far more important issue than mental gymnastics we use to argue about the next weather report? And how often is anyone accurate when it come to predicting the weather?