Toyota November Tops US Electric Plug In Vehicle Sales For November

Listing the amount of kWh consumed hasn't been happening.

The attitude that electricity is free & unlimited is working its way into the mindset of those praising EV. There is genuine reason to be concerned that we could simply be switching from one fuel to another rather than actually reducing emissions & consumption.

Supporters of Volt cringe whenever the topic of Two-Mode is brought up... since even though it was indeed a hybrid, it still consumed large quantities of gas. The large "HYBRID" labels it flaunted was a great example of having put lipstick on a pig.

Watching for references to "gas saved" reveals a lot where GM's priorities actually are. When other automakers promote their plug-in vehicles. Comparing gas consumption between Prius & Prius PHV or C-Max & C-Max Energi doesn't have as much as an impact as comparing Volt to the industry average.

The real winners are those who address efficiency candidly and don't place speed & power among the highest priorities. We can pretend to be green or actually be it. There's a difference, details of which some attempt to withhold.

 

On a certain level I applaud the GM marketing machine. I am amazed that people have bought into the 'domestic fuel' bullet point while somehow ignoring the 'destroy our home with domestic pollution' corollary.

Now I know the usual suspects are going to jump up and down screaming "but it does not HAVE to be polluting!", yet ignore the facts of what it in fact is.

I suppose that recognizing advantages and disadvantages to each solution is too much to ask of fanboys.

 

The manufactures do report both froms of energy, since the manufacturers follow what EPA says to report, which is MPGe which for BEVs and EREVs is just a different way to report kWh. The only car for which MPGe is not sufficient to determine kWh efficiency is the PHV since it cannot complete the EPA testing without using gas.

That individuals don't always report kWh is because of their own focus. Many do report both usage, but some don't. There are many threads in the PHV subforum where people only talk about MPG.. with no report of kWh used. And those who do are mislead by the car, which reports kWh from battery not wall.


And yes many are just switching fuel source, but for them that is the major reason they are switching. If you keep things just about emissions and consumption, the average American does not care -- if they did hybrids would sell better. Don't project your motives and expect that others care about those things.

The real winners are those that provide users an efficient vehicle that matches customers needs desires. While you might not like two-mode, my cousin has one because it can tow his work trailer with HVAC parts, as well as his horses and camper and is more efficient than the general Sierra in doing so. He does about 18K miles a year, and the two-mode allows him to have a 21MPG EPA rating, so its saving about 200 gallons a year (about 850 gallons a year, compared to 1050 gallons for the regular) or 400 gallons compared to Toyota Tundra S6 (15mpg), which is the only thing Toyota makes that could do the towing.

Two mode may not be selling like hotcakes, since the savings of $800 a year take 5-6 years to justify the added costs, but it give those who want to a choice. The business case problem is that many people who are doing those type of things don't care enough to want to spend the up-front to reduce fuel costs and there are fewer within that segment that will do it for environmental reasons.

The two-mode is better than you make it sound. While 17-21 MPG might not sound like a lot to you, that is because MPG is a non-linear measure. The two mode is saving him 200+ gallons a year. How many gallons are you savings with your PHV?

 

John 1701a,

Good points made, Volt owners so adversed to using 'gas' really should have an option of driving their Volt sans ice and 'gas' tank. More battery capacity could be added where the ice and 'gas' tank resided. Then these owners would not worrying about the ice consuming 'gas' and derived the benefit of extended EV range. Also this would negate the dead weight issue of lugging the ice and 'gas' tank around. Seems like a win / win situation.

After all, isn't that what these Volt owners crowing about not using gas ultimately want?

Or, could they be harboring other hidded agenders?

DBCassidy

 

Exactly, IMHO that has been the Volts' short coming since day one of production.

DBCassidy

 

The 2 mode is definitely the way to go. There is no dead weight to lug around, all components are contributing to the vehicle propulsion, very efficiently doing so.

DBCassidy

 

What seems very apparent, and shouted out by folks like usbseawolf, is that the Toyota Plug-In does not command any additional value in the eyes of consumers over a regular Prius. By lowering the price of a PiP to match a similar appointed Prius, sales of PiPs cannibalized Prius sales, and not much else.

 

Given GM announced the end of the two-mode, "not selling like hotcakes" is a bit of an understatement. However, I have driven a two-mode vehicle:

• January 2009, Saturn VUE - every bit as good as the Ford Escape hybrid, it was a nice test drive on a snowy, Detroit day. But the stupid "Hybrid" incorporated in the paint job, GM soon canceled both this vehicle and the whole Saturn line.

That was the smallest vehicle that ever had a two-mode that I was aware of. It apparently did not scale well for smaller, more fuel efficient bodies. GM's partners in the two-mode development didn't even make it that far.

I remember reading positive reviews of the two-mode but noticed they lacked engineering specificity. Press releases, one in particular made it look more like an automatic transmission with a hydromatic coupling.

The dual-clutch transmissions look like a simpler approach and adding a motor to augment mileage makes a lot of sense. I see the VW, Hyundai and others adopting this "blue motion" approach as having a long-term solution. The control laws are not trivial but solvable.

Bob Wilson

 

Who is the market for Volt ?

Two-Mode served such a small group of consumers, there weren't enough being purchased to even call it a niche.

MIDDLE-MARKET has what available for purchase? It's certainly not Volt with a base price at $39k. We need solutions for the masses, not trophies.

 

I certainly can't be accused of not reporting my kWh efficiency... I'm doing 27 kWh /100 miles over the last 30 days but 25 kWh more typically.

I agree that it's a potential problem. I see people, particularly on the Tesla forum, who giddily report driving inefficiently on their electricity machine. But, they may well be powering their car with solar panels or other renewable ultra-low carbon sources in which case it doesn't matter so much (although I suppose they could have shared that cleaner energy with others).

I presume that someone buying a Tahoe or a Cadillac Escalade isn't seriously cross-shopping a Prius. Realistically, the choice for them will be among gas-hog giant SUVs where GM chose (unwisely) to target their hybrid sales. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 2-mode hybrid design itself. It works well for large vehicles that need towing capability. It increases the Escalade's EPA estimated city mileage by 43% and it's combined mileage by 31%.

The Volt provides owners a monthly efficiency summary by automated email. It also has a website that allows owners to check their efficiency in detail whenever they want and to easily download the raw data in spreadsheet format. Volstats.net provides a sortable leader-board for the efficiency statistics for any Volt owner who opts in to allowing controlled access to the automatically downloaded OnStar data from their Volt.

I don't believe Toyota does any of that -- even for the expensive advanced PiP with Toyota telematics hardware. Instead, Prius owners have to manually upload their data from their gas pump receipts and gather EV charging data from a Kill-a-Watt meter or a fancy high-end networked EVSE and then maybe manually add it to an obscure spreadsheet here. Same with Ford.

Also, I'm not seeing evidence that the C-MAX Energi has much better gas mileage in real world driving than the Volt although the data is limited so far. PiP and Volt have different trade-offs along the battery capacity and gas efficiency spectrum. Energi stakes out the middle ground. The Volt trade-offs work better for some drivers like me.

 

If you are saying the prius phv is nothing more or better than an aftermarket mod putting in a bigger battery, that perception, may be what is hurting sales. This is a thread about sales volume. You will notice the phv dropped this month with the introduction of the c-max energi. I didn't mean to offend you if you think you are a slow moving wait and see guy that doesn't like trying the latest technology.

Both phv and volt need improvements to get mass acceptance. That doesn't mean they are not good initial cars. Both suffer from anti EV and anti-lithium press. Both get labeled as not worth them money.

Why is price not constructive? Don't people buy cars at a price point.

What is the cost of each prius phv. They start at about $41K in Japan. For all I know each one costs toyota $50K to build, import, advertise here. Cost is not a good concept for first run cars. They are always sold at losses if you initially need to charge R&D to just a model cycle. IMHO right now the prius phv may cost toyota more for each unit than the volt. Does it matter? I would expect that 20 mile range gen IV prius based phv to cost toyota less per unit than these cars, and that is why they are investing.

 

At $32,000, the Prius PHV isn't serving your middle market either. That's nearly $8000 more than the base Prius, and a little more than $5500 than the Sienna. For a family with bills, which will get serious consideration as the next vehicle?

Without the $4000 to $5000 incentive here on the east coast, P-PHV sales would be lower. We can ask USB if he would have purchased without the incentives. What has been the highest corporate or dealer incentive for the Volt?

 

Does Toyota sell a PHEV with 40-50 mile range? No, it doesn't. Neither does Ford. I see no evidence that Toyota would sell a 40-50 mile EV range PHEV for significantly less than the Volt (if they were to build one). Yet, that's what works best for me and lots of other drivers who have been buying the Volt.

You seem to want GM to sell a PiP or Energi-like PHEV -- maybe a PHEV Cruze. It would be nice to have more competition but the PHEV market may not be large enough yet for directly competitive cars with nearly identical capabilities. I hope you aren't saying that GM should not have developed the Volt or should stop selling it now.

 

2015 will be an interesting time for the Prius. New design and some game changing technology. The rumor is they may release a EV-40 due to PIP survey about increased range but at a competitive price. There will be some different lower cost battery changes in the hybrid. Expect hybrid mileage to exceed 60 MPG

 

I'm reminded of this history:

Pre-2001

• Three EVs: Toyota, Honda, and GM
• PNGV: excellent PowerPoint designs including Precept
• First Prius in Japan

2001-2006

• Hydrogen fraud kills PNGV
• NWH11 arrives and is replaced by NHW20
• Honda two-seater Insight and Civic hybrids
• First home-grown NHW20 plug-ins
  • 2, 4, 8, and 10 mile ranges

2006-2010

• Home-grown NHW20 plug-ins
• GM announced and produces first Volts
  • Economic collapse and bailout
• Hydrogen fraud fades to obscurity
• Honda ends two-seat Insight

2010-2012

• Toyota plug-in
  • range slightly larger than home-grown plug-in
  • MPG preserved
• Volt plug-in
  • range ~1/2 EV-1
  • MPG consistent with existing GM cars
• Ford, VW, Hyundai bringing their plug-ins
• Nissan takes a technological gamble on EVs
• Honda tries to upscale the IMA with modest results

Today we can speculate on which models will meet with market success and move on to derivations. That the Prius has gone from a single to four models complimented by the growing family of Toyota hybrids, this is the mark of a successful architecture. Small wonder that Toyota's plug-in is just a grown-up version of the homegrown, plug-ins.

The other manufacturers, not Toyota, Ford, and Honda, are in effect fielding their 'first generations' and a lot of lessons are being learned . . . a decade late. It is too soon to call winners or losers but next year, this time, we'll have sales figures and hopefully reasons to be happy.

I'm still looking for a 5% or better market penetration by hybrids and more body styles. Right now, Toyota has the largest and growing pool due in no part to their 15 year head start, first Prius in 1997 in Japan.

One good thing about GM's Volt, the hybrid skeptic chorus seems to have turned down the volume. We're seeing more echos of earlier nonsense, not the well funded efforts seen in the past.

Bob Wilson

 

Just a reminder that The first gen Honda Insight was the first hybrid sold in America. The Prius was before the Honda in Japan but not America. The Insight got 72 MPG and it had a Manuel shifter. The second year the Insight had a 82 MPG rating added AC and auto transmission.Th Prius came to the USA but eclipsed the Insight. Toyota Prius today is the #1 selling car in Japan, California, #10 in the USA and #3 worldwide. Hybrid is not a zero emission car but it's emissions are much better than gas powered only cars.

 

I have contention with the underlined. The Spark, Sonic, and Cruze eco with manual transmissions might have consistent MPG numbers, but the sales of cars with sticks is 20% at most. It is likely lower now. With automatics the cars compare with the highway numbers, but their city is sub 30mpg to the Volt's 35mpg.

The fact is, before this year, the Prius was the only hybrid with big mpg numbers. Others had some impressive ones, but the Volt was comparable. Considering the big effect slight changes has on the mpg number, the conditions and driver would have a big impact on which of those hybrids did better during a drive.

The 2013 Volt is still using the ICE GM had versus the one they wanted. Perhaps the refresh due for 2014 will see ICE efficiency improvements.

 

This is one reason why subcompact, efficiency cars are suspect. The Corvette and a couple of other two-seat sports cars are exceptions but they are not designed for fuel efficiency.

I'm less worried about emissions as much as the exceptional fuel efficiency, range and flexibility.

Bob Wilson

 

An interesting concept, a 35 MPG, 5-seat, automatic derived from the Volt. Use a small battery pack between the front seats and suddenly GM has a competitive, automatic.

Bob Wilson

 

Your take is always entertaining and informative.

We do have 3 in the the real model - a liftback, a wagon, and a plug in. The plug-in looks like a good first try, but I would not call it a grown up version. Its fairly easy to add a bigger battery to a hybrid, and toyota has done some more - higher speed electric some minor instrumentation - but has more work to do to give a more electric experience like the other plug-ins.

I guess that is just gm and Nissan when it comes to a new plug-in system. Tesla is on their second generation bev (roadster). I would say Honda's PHEV is as new to them as the volt is to gm though.

We can definitely call the volt a winner compared to its nay sayers that thought it would get killed by competition. It will lead US and European plug-in sales.

The Tesla S is also a winner. Reviews are great, and they have booked large sales for next year. They just need to get their manufacturing sped up.

The leaf falls into the loser camp, falling to number 3 in plug-in sales and not getting close to the volts numbers. They can turn it around though.

Plug-in sales in the US alone this year are higher than hybrid sales were world wide in 2003. Hybrids needed a second generation. I expect plug-in sales will need second generation cars to really spike.

You know they are a lot less than 15 years a head in technology. Those original hsd pattents lose protection next year, and Ford and Toyota were even with tech in 2004 as they exchanged patents. As far as reputation and models Toyota is way out front, but it needs good execution to keep its lead. Toyota had 57% market share of hybrid and plug ins last month.

I think they just shifted targets. The well funded chorus has shifted from anti-hybrid to anti plug-in. This made GM, Fisker, and Tesla the targets instead of toyota.