Toyota November Tops US Electric Plug In Vehicle Sales For November

Isn't that what eAssist supposed to do?
The BAS system it derived from got knocked for stretching the hybrid term and price, but the concept is sound. An auto start/stop system with a tiny bit of boost. It's main hamperance is the weight of GM cars. Losing some will help the non hybrids, and the percentage gain of eAssist will look more attractive to buyers.

With improvements in batteries, I think GM should keep the Volt EV range around where it is, and down size the pack. If it doesn't free up space for a fifth seat, perhaps enough for a '+1' child seat or anchor point for a baby seat. it would increase the car's appeal to growing families, and further differentiate it from the Caddy Volt coming out. Likely being more performance orientated, it will need a more powerful battery. So might as well have it with the longer EV range. The increased cost of a larger pack is more acceptable for the brand.

 

$30k has been and continues to be the middle-market target.

When the tax-credit expires, that goal of delivering a plug-in hybrid with a nice balance of priorities isn't in danger. Being able to shave off $2,000 for 2015 is within reason. We see Toyota striving to keep cost in check. They aren't making sacrifices for the sake of offering more capacity.

So what if there are other models of Prius available with lower prices. The point is to increase choice. None of them offer a plug. Market expansion is realistic when MSRP is at a level comparable to what mainstream purchases already are.

High-Volume sales don't come from complicated justifications of price. It's quite simple to see how swapping in a larger battery and adding a plug offers a MPG boost.

 

To my eyes, the BAS is just a GM version of IMA and the IMA seems to have reached its design limits in the mid-40s. Because the BAS torque has to pass through the crankshaft, it is severely performance limited. I see it as a dead end.

Now put that motor on a power-take-off shaft into a well designed transmission, a computer controlled transmission including the clutch and GM could effectively make something worth driving. More importantly, they could scale the motor and battery for a wide range of vehicles.

By computer controlled, the clutch would only be used when coming to a dead stop or starting. Otherwise, shifting could be 'hot' using accurate rpm sensors on each shaft. This is the way to go.

Bob Wilson

 

We'll see how much Honda's new one-motor hybrid system improves efficiency. It's now a dual-clutch system.

 

Normally we think mid market as cars like the camry and accord. I guess that would make the fusion energi the closest to the mid market, but it costs much more. Maybe it is that c-max energi. If battery prices come down it should be under $30K with cargo room and performance the mid market asks for.

I'm not sure what $30K has to do with it. Mid market is normally defined as less expensive than average car price. I don't find your definition helpful though. I would think a tesla plug in could be successful at a much higher price point than say a 11 mile aer prius plug in.

I don't expect any of these current generation cars selling well when the credits expire. I would expect that if batteries are $200-$350 /kwh hour we will not see 10 miles hybrids selling in the US. You need to think future not past. The battery size for the phv was chosen when toyota was talking $1200/kwh.

Um... This sounds like giberish. I guess people will buy more teslas if they were at $20K each, but in December we may see nearly as many teslas sold as prius phvs. People will pay more for value, especially initial adopters.

I guess I just am not seeing how $30K for a prius phv after tax credits before discounts is that much different than $32K for a volt after tax credits. I can read the numbers though. If you average over months the volt is selling more than the phv. If you think that when more competition hits the prius phv will not increase its battery size, you and I are looking at quite different futures. Battery costs are dropping just as predicted.

 

Well, let's get the numbers right. The Volt has a combined mileage estimate of 37 mpg. The nearest automatic compact or larger GM car is the Chevy Sonic with 31 mpg. In reality, most of the Volt's gas miles are on the highway where it gets an EPA estimated 40 mpg (versus 41 for the C-MAX Energi).

Like I said previously, I doubt I would get much better than my Volt's ~46 mpg gas-only mileage if I drove an Energi. I would get only 1/2 the EV range which would make my overall drive use a lot more gasoline and therefore a lot more CO2 emissions since my electricity is relatively lower carbon (and will be 100% renewable next year).

 

Hmm maybe you got those numbers by hypermiling, or you are quoting JP08 numbers. EPA was much lower. The Gen 1 Insight was EPA rated at 61mpg highway, 53mpg combined.
So it was a bit better, but as a two seater, far less usable for many.

 

It could also said that another reason for Toyota getting higher Nov. sales numbers than the Volt: legacy that is excellant with the Prius. Also a product that is well defined in the market place. The Volt seems to still have an identity crisis on what it wants to be.

DBCassidy

 

Honda Insight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare Old and New MPG Estimates
Maybe it was from the 73 mpg-imp highway.
in the original old epa
61/70/65 mpg

Why can't we get much higher than the 61 mpg highway today? cda is 6.25 on the gen III prius, while it was 5.1 on insigt because of a smaller frontal area. The original insight also had lean burn which current emissions restrict because of NOx. Get a prius as low drag as the insight and have a di to make up for the loss of lean burn and you can get 60 mpg highway again

 

Ok, here is the deal:

Make a stretch Insight I, difficult unless you understand how to deal with aluminum. But a functional equivalent can be made with foam-and-fiberglass with carbon fiber spars.

So let's take the NHW11 power-to-weight ratio and energy for 0-60 mph, a 13 second duration. If you are OK with a four-seat, advanced body (home built foam-and-fiber glass with carbon fiber spars) with an advanced, hybrid power plant that takes 13 seconds to reach 0-60 mph, we're in the same universe. Such cars are technically possible.

Understand, I really don't care if Consumer Reports or anybody thinks my 2003, 151,000 mile, used Prius is a good car . . . because it fully meets my expectations. But then I'm not trying to sell cars . . .

Sometimes we have to choose the 'less bad' solution because we need something TODAY. I find it hard to imagine why a Volt could ever be the best solution for us:

• too small
• bad highway performance - 700+ mile trips
• charging infrastructure

Understand I am sympathetic to others having a different set of requirements. But I am not them.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

I'm trying to understand why you think the Volt is too small. It has the same passenger volume as your gen1 Prius, and 6 more cubic feet of cargo area. Do you need a fifth seat? Are you expecting?

Without the infrastructure, no plug in is going to be a good solution for those with regular long trips. The Prius-PHV gets slightly better highway fuel economy than the hatchback, but the lack of a spare could give some pause.

The average price of new cars sold is around $30k. But that's what it is, an average. Cars around that price are the top trim Camries, Accords, and Fusions. Cars of greater comfort and refinement than the Prius. Yes, the Prius can approach that price, but BMWs and Volvos can also be found for that price. So, unless the P-PHV offers substantially more than the hatchback, the only people buying them will be those that want a plug and a Toyota at the $30k price mark.

The average sold price also includes trucks, which can easily price at $40k, and minivans. The P-PHV is around $5500 more than the starting price of the Sienna. While a family could justify getting a Prius hatch for the lower monthly payment and fuel bills. They will be hard pressed to do so for a P-PHV that costs more and is smaller than a minivan.

The $30,000 mark is the point where luxury car brands start becoming an option for a car buyer. Luxury and middle market tend to exclude the other. By the reviews, the Volt seems to have Buick level or higher appoints. It's a Chevy, in part, so not have the exclusive air of a luxury brand.

The Prius modding community has known for years that a plug or a larger battery could boost mpg. Nice of Toyota to notice.

 

The mindset is not only free and unlimited but it also charges instantly.

The added weight from the oversized battery lowers gas engine and electricity efficiency. Battery also takes up room and cost more. All of those are overlooked because it runs on the electricity that is free, unlimited and the battery is free due to tax credit. Right.

The positive aspect of electricity is the ability to generate from many fuel sources. When calculating the emission, they shy away from using the average.

 

Post 2008 EPA rating is 53 MPG for manual and 47 MPG for auto.

Fuel Economy of 2001 Honda Insight

 

Read fuel efficiency section on this link.

Honda Insight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Good points made is for me the Prius gen 3 was the perfect car since I wanted reliability, excellent fuel economy and a modern car with many technology enhancements but I did not want the hassle of charging the car every day to save less than a dollar a day. If I was retired with nothing but time on my hands and travel less than 10 miles per day most days the PIP would be the better choice. Who wants to be beholden to charging stations several times a day

 

I've filled all five seats several times for short trips. Sometimes it is easier to carry folks in one car instead of trying to take multiple vehicles.

Bob Wilson

 

I hope those were very short trips. Putting someone in the bitch seat of a Prius for any length of time would be akin to putting the family pet in a crate on the roof. I always opted for an additional vehicle or multiple trips when we needed to take a 5th in our gen 2 Prius.

 

A couple of restaurants and my dad's internment in Arlington.

Bob Wilson

 

Of course with the "other" PHEV you would be saving a few dollars a day with an overnight charge, travel 120+ miles a day, not worry about charging during the day, and use less gasoline.

 

I have not seen evidence of anyone thinking charging is instantaneous. Between cell phones, laptops, tablets, and video game controllers, the population is aware that batteries take time to charge.

Unlike liquid or gas fueled vehicles, electric charging requires little investment of time on the part of the user. The car doesn't need to be baby sat. They can go off and do other things. Like work, eat, shop, or in most cases sleep while it's charging,

The fact is there is no advantage in a short charge time until the battery is full. The EV efficiency, which considers the extra weight of larger batteries, of most plug ins is nearly the same. So a certain time spent charging will gain the same amount of EV miles, regardless of battery. Assuming the same size charger. For those planning on making many short charges during the day, a larger onboard charger is more important than a smaller battery.

For informed consumers, charge times only have a bearing on whether they need to invest in a level 2 charger for the home. Since home charging is mostly accomplished while they sleep, only BEVs might actually need such installed.

The majority of the population has been treating electricity as free long before the arrival of plug in cars. The mentality needs to change. In defense of those EVers that do it; the cost savings over using gas can feel like free, and they may have other priorities over emissions for the purchase.

Batteries do take up space, but this is only a real issue in converts. Convert hybrids are still losing space to their ICE counterparts. For ground up PHV designs, it is less of an issue. The Volt has a smidge more passenger volume than a gen1 Prius. It loses the fifth seat, but that was design choice, likely in favor of weight distribution and handling. It has 6 more cubic feet of cargo volume than the gen1. So a 5 seater could have likely been done, but all designs have compromises.

The tax credits are to spurn innovation of vehicle batteries by nuturing the market. Did the Prius really need the tax rebates, credits, and HOV stickers to be successful? It is a great all around car. But how many people needed those incentives to take the hybrid plunge? Same for plug ins now.

The average grid emission shouldn't be used because not one plug in charges on an average grid. It is known where these cars were sold and registered. If an honest debate on their impact on grid use and emissions is truly desired, use the grid data for where the cars are. Using the average is disingenuous of what is happening in reality.