Toyota November Tops US Electric Plug In Vehicle Sales For November

I've read it, have you read it..

Do you likve in the UK where imp gallons are used?
And usbseawolf cit the actual EPA site (more authorative than wikipipidia), and is correct on his quotes for the combined.

The manual Gen 1 insight was only 61MPG highway and 53 Combined, the automatic 49 highway/47 combined. So the Gen III prius is more efficient as an automatic.

In comparison, EPA rating for the Volt(see link) is 60MPG overall (combined MPGe + MPG highway and city). making it the overall most efficient car with a gas engine ever sold.

 

Year but what is the PIP 94 Mg or something like that.

 

Just a note regarding space and batteries. This really is, as Trollbait said, design decisions. Most cars out on the roads have one person in them, so while some may need a 5th seat, many do not.
That being said, properly engineered, a BEV can give you much more cargo/passenger room than an ICE or hybrid. No ICE, no exhaust system, and you eliminate many other secondary systems.

 

95, while running on electricity.
Amazingly enough, the same mpge as the 60kWh Model S

 

So long as you ignore the source of electricity.

I wonder if you have any idea how posts like this one damages your credibility.

 

I think you did more to hurt your own credibility
He said efficiency, which, if those numbers are correct and you use the same test, is true as far as efficiency goes.
The source of the electricity makes no difference for the pure efficiency.
It DOES make a large difference when talking about the CO2 intensity, but then you are talking about a case by case basis and not a standard test for measurements of all cars.
There are cases where the Volt is the most efficient car with an ICE, there are cases where the PIP is the most efficient and there are cases where the Prius is the most efficient.

 

Also no fuel tank I think it's not just about the amount of stuff, but also the packaging limitations they impose. BEVs are a series of cable-connected components and allow more freedom.

 

The EPA testing methodology is defined measure of vehicle efficiency and does not include variations because of the source of fuel, it is a measure of efficiency from pump/wall to wheels. Note they also use a standardized blend of pure gas, something few people actually get to use.

While I've never seen (and I've looked) for a combined rating for the PiP, my estimates for it are at 56 .413 (using utility factor for 11 miles I compute it via 1/(.24/95+.76/50)). I presume its not being talked about because its not the best. For new C-max I estimate 59.644 (1/(.40/100+.60/47)) while my computations put the volt at 56.648, so it is possible the C-Max may take over.

Thanks for worrying about my credibility, but my statements were factual and correct, so if it damages my credibility it should only be with someone that favors the prior bias over facts.

 

Whenever you post this crap, I always think of this vehicle, another paragon of high MPG(e) virtue. For those unfamiliar with the device the car is towing, it is a petrol generator.




If it's electric consumption is similar to the new RAV EV coming to market, the MPG(e) of the combo is a "brilliant" 80, putting the Volt to shame. Nonsensical, you say ? That is what happens when your 'facts' are applied consistently.

 

A big thank you for bringing this up cc: the BEV. I've have mentioned in numerous posts regarding the Volt transformed into a BEV. Getting rid of the ice and gas tank. More room for additional batteries and extended range.

Sounds like GM s/b offering this option for the gas-adversed customer. This option could appeal to a larger market base.

DBCassidy

 

I like it. The main thing is a car like the prius has too big of a cdA to get to get that 61 mpg highway, with gasoline engine tech. Its the tallness of the prius that increase frontal area making cdA high. I have a friend that works in fiberglass, but I don't think I would end up with anything street legal.

No problem, and with today's engine tech, and motor tech you can have much faster acceleration without hurting efficiency.

I think that is a healthy attitude. Reviews can give you information but are all biased in one way or another CR's biases are quite different than yours or my own, so while the objective information can be informative, the opinion of recommended or not is not.

Quite important to use your own requirements. I only have problems with one of those points. People act as if the volt will get poor fuel economy on long trips and be a guzzler. Its epa highway is 40 mpg just one less than the gen I prius - a 700 mile trip would likely take 16.5 gallons of gasoline + 13kwh if you only charged before the trip. The gen I prius 17 gallons, the phv 14 gallons and 3.5 kwh. If you scale by the number of long trips you take a year, the volt doesn't consume that many more kwh and gallons of gasoline than the most efficient car for the job, at least using epa highway numbers, prius phv. If you do 10 of these type trips a year of varying length but totaling 7000 miles you may use 25 gallons and 95 kwh more in a volt than a prius phv. YMMV. The numbers also indicate on this type of trip the prius phv does not do that much better than the gen I or gen II prius. The fuel savings come on daily trips not the long trips.

 

TheTesla Model S is an awesome example of maximizing cargo/passenger room with a BEV. 7 passengers AND space for cargo.

 

I figure the combo old Rav4 plus trailer is closer to 40 MPGe than 80.

What are your assumptions?

The old Rav4 got 54 kWh / 100 miles on the highway (adjusted for current EPA calcs) or around 60-65 MPGe electric only. It had 27 kWh battery and therefore a highway utility factor of around .7. The generator gives 7.7 kWh per gallon at 20 kW output or about 14 mpg.

EDIT: I found some potentially conflicting EPA estimates. I will use the old unadjusted (pre-2007) numbers to calculate a best case alternative MPGe....

Under the original 2002 unadjusted EPA numbers, highway was 34 kWh / 100 miles or around 99 MPGe electric only. The battery is still 26-27 kWh but usable capacity is a bit unclear. Owners claim around 100 miles at 56 mph. That probably implies an EPA highway range estimate of around 75 miles. That implies a utility factor of .8. The generator's 7.7 kWh per gallon then works out to 23 mpg (for comparison, the manual gas RAV4 gets 31 mpg unadjusted EPA). That, finally, implies a total of around 59-60 MPGe. So, a little better than the 56-57 combined MPGe the good doctor calculated for PiP, Energi and Volt due to the larger RAV4 EV battery (utility factor).

However, on a long road trip you would still be getting 23 mpg (under old EPA estimate calcs) vs. 40-41 mpg for Volt and Energi and 49 mpg for PiP.

Revise further downward to account for aerodynamic drag on the generator trailer and using post-2007 EPA estimate formulas.


Sources:
Compare Old and New MPG Estimates

Compare Old and New MPG Estimates

Rav4 EV

See table 4:
http://www.tzev.com/files/rxt-g_acp_white_paper_range_extending_trailers.pdf

http://www.tzev.com/files/rxt-g_acp_long_ranger_IV_owners_user_manual.pdf

EV trailer project overview page:
ACP AC Propulsion Series Range Extending Trailer prototype. Toyota Rav4-EV Hybrid prototype. Alan Cocconi. 2000 BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle). RXT-G. LongRanger. Hybrid Trailer. EV Range Extender. GenSet.

 

None of that addresses cost of the option itself.

You want leather and a moonroof, that upgrade isn't free. You want HUD and a nicer stereo, that upgrade isn't free. You want larger wheels and LED lights, that upgrade isn't free.

Toyota's goal was always looked upon as a premium, the price you would be willing to pay for the upgrade. You want a larger battery and a plug, you have to pay for it. The cost of that was $3,000 to $5,000. How is that not realistic?

I cannot envision someone making a purchase decision better a near-luxury guzzler and a plug-in mainstream hybrid. They are far too different.

 

Funny you should mention this:

The first thing I did with both Prius was to map MPG vs mph. This is our 2003 Prius:

So I typically cruise at 65 mph on the highway and get 52 MPG all day long. In our ZVW30 we get the same at 70 mph:

But then I've not seen a similar chart for the Volt. Perhaps you might do something similar someday?

Both Prius have tow bars:



The 1.8L towed the plane 600 miles back to Huntsville:


The trip back was in the mid-40s at an average speed of 52-53 mph in high winds, 30 mph gusty, and rain. With the 1,700 lbs of trailer and airplane we got 28 MPG.

Understand, these are my requirements and our performance metrics were derived from my instrumented studies as well as driving with a ScanGauge and other instrumentation.

Bob Wilson

 

I doubt the Rav EV with trailer provided 80MPGe in EPA testing -- so that is not an example of applying the facts consistently. The volt efficency rating is already paying the penalty for carrying around its ICE generator.

If I am mistaken and there is an 80MPGe EPA rating for the RAV+trailer, then that would very impressive indeed.

I do have issues with MPGe applied to pure BEV like the Rav4 or a Leaf, as I think the overall computation needs to include the ICE they use for other trips.. so if there is a BEV with say 100mile range, its overall MPGe should use the utility factor for 100miles and some average MPG for the remaining miles.

 

deleted dup post

 

Strongly disagree unless you are going to also ding the mpg rating of a Prius for when you need to take the hockey team on a trip in the Escelade

Seriously, these ratings are a rating of the vehicle, not the household. I do agree that if someone feels they need an additional vehicle they should take the energy use, and cost and energy to build of both into consideration.

But again, you can't take family or individual factors and incorporate them into a measuring stick for any potential buyer.

The whole mpge stat was specifically so that people could compare the efficiency of gas vs electric cars.

 

You're the one linking a $30k price tag with middle market. I'm merely pointing out the contradiction of car costing as much as a luxury brand being called middle market. Luxury items by their definition are above the middle.

 

I am unaware of any models of how often people need to take a larger vehichle, but the whole point of utility functions is they have studied driving patterns and it is what defines how they combine City and Highway as well as Gas + Ev. I'd be happy if they just provided the customer the statistics so they can combine as needed.. but just having all EV rated just by MPGe and ignoring range is somewhat misleading to the customer and does not really encourage larger batteries.

Tesla is going after meanigful EVs, while Fit, iMev, Leaf and FFe have too short a range, stastically, to be an only car. While its always YMMV, EPA is about making fair and informative comparisons to help consumers make efficient decisions. The current process does not really do that. When I did my research I considered this to my surprise I found a leaf would actually use MORE gas for me, because of the need to use the subaru for the longer trips. But the data and formulas for doing that are not really obvious.

Companies other than tesla are releasing BEVs that have enough range to make maybe 80% of the trips, but getting credited as if it was all the trips. Maybe the place this is needed is not for the end-customer but for the CAFE rules and how they combine with other vehichle sales for CARB/CAFE compliance.

Maybe a better alternative would be for an EPA calculator that ask questions about the number of different length trips, and vehichles owned/considered and does the computation to help users better understand. That did that with the beyond tail-pipe emission site, but don't give enough choices.