Toyota November Tops US Electric Plug In Vehicle Sales For November

I don't think you are taking into consideration the very inexpensive off-peak rates that a large battery PHEV and BEV is able to leverage. Houston has electric suppliers offering "free nights". The economics of selecting a TOU rate plan for a small battery vehicle might not be favorable though.

 

Good for you if you live in Houston. Free electricity and tax credit for plugin would make it a no brainer. How is that helpful when the incentives are gone?

 

Darryl reported that the generator uses the same amount of fuel (or less) than the petrol only RAV. EPA from 2005 has that car on the highway at 27 MPG.

Using 33.400 wh/gallon, the energy consumption is 33,400/27 = 1237.037037 wh/mile. I assume the ICE conversion efficiency on the highway at 27.5%, meaning the driveshaft is consuming 1237*.275 = 340 wh/mile. If the EV is 80% efficient, then consumption at the tyre is 340/0.8 = 425 wh/mile.

Now for MPG(e) fun and facts: 33,400/425 = 78.6 MPG(e).

I have to wash my hands now, after writing this MPG(e) nonsense.

p.s: I do understand the idea of energy equivalencies, but comparing source petrol to the carrier electricity is a fool's game. We might as well compute the Prius MPG(e) based on 28% of total torque flowing from ICE to wheels, and 72% of total torque as electricity flowing from the electric motors to wheels.

 

I don't think the "free nights" has anything to do with government incentives and many electric utilities around the country are offering TOU rates. TXU in Houston is just an extreme.

I am not aware of any Texas EV or PHEV incentives, expired or expiring. ahh, almost forgot about the Pecan Street Project which offered something like $7500 toward a Volt for those participating in the project, which I believe did receive some state funding.

 

That sounds like 27 MPGe .

 

You are confused by the difference between MPG and MPG(e). In fact, you are a poster child for why MPG(e) is such a poor quantity for the EPA to advertise when attempting to compare EVs to petrol vehicles.

 

2005 used the old bloated EPA formula that made the giant land barges look like they were getting mpg's in the twenty's instead of the teens. The manufacturers use to love that formula back then. The push came to revamp the EPA only after their formula made the Gen II Prius look like it got 60 miles per gallon city.
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SGH-I717R ? 2

 

Yep, but since my annual average was 60 mpg, and over 70 mpg when the weather was pleasant like the EPA testing, I just always figured the EPA was giving the Prius a deflated number

 

Since it's burning gasoline, you just calculate mpg as you would for any other gas car. Efficiency percentages aren't used when calculating mpg, and neither are they used for mpge. The conversion efficiency of the fuel and other losses are factored into the equation by the distance driven.

MPGe=(total miles driven*energy of 1 gal gasoline)/energy of all the fuels consumed

 

See my post above, of an EV towing a petrol generator. Why does the length of the cord matter ?

 

USB,

Thank you for bringing up a very important, but very seldom talked about issue: what happens when incentives are gone?

Will the posters on this forum currently crowing about free turn around and start crying hoe they now have to PAY for the no longer free electricity?

Questions:

Do they even have a plan "B" when that day comes.

Before their purchase / leasing of their current vehicles, did they eventake that into consideration that one day all the "free" electricity would end?

I would not be surprised in the least bit if any of them even considered asking themselves the above questions.

A smart business / purchasing decision would have included the above questions, and a astute individual knows the days of "free" are limited.

Only a fool would be naive enough to think that the free electricity, and never ending tax credits would be eternal.

DBCassidy

 

Tell me that the EPAs' MPG(e) in not (heavily) politically skewed?

DBCassidy

 

For political skewing check out CAFE. LOL
I honestly would not have a problem with MPG(e) if the EPA made it clear that only cars with similar fuel sources/carriers should be compared.

 

Somehow we have some very confused people here.

If you have a vehicle with its ICE on a trailer, and you fill it with gasoline, it is not in anyway theoretically different than one with the ice in the car. We can calculate MPG in charge sustain mode for each.

Compare Side-by-Side
If you say, have a gen I RAV4 that current EPA got 69 mpge on the highway, and you are fuelling it with gasoline in a long ranger that gets 0.14 gallons / kwh we can calculate what mpg highway of rav4 ev + trailer get ignoring extra drag or charging losses

(69 miles/GGE)x(1 GGE / 33.7 kwh)/(0.14 gallons/kwh)= 14.6 miles/gallon gasoline.

Now it is the epa test, and there are all kinds of fudge factors, but this is a good estimate of what the vehicle would get on the highway portion of the test. We should not be surprised that this number is worse than the gasoline Rav 4 of its day, 26 mpg highway for the automatic. If you are getting high mileage in the RAV4 ev, you need to compare it to the gas version driving the same way, not to the epa. The generator is not all that efficient. 1/(33.7 kwh/gal x 0.14 gal/kwh) = 22% efficiency in the generator. A PHEV is going to be much better in charge sustain mode. Both the engine and drive train will be more efficient than plugging in an reasonably cost tow-able generator.

Why go though all of this? Somehow people get confused with mpge, and think well lets think of it as gasoline. If you think of it as gasoline pulled in a poor generator then there is no point in a plug-in. Now if on the other hand you want to use wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, hydroelectric, or coal, you can not simply tow your power plant along The point of plug-ins is to switch away from oil. The most likely source of power is going to be combined cycle natural gas generator that uses domestic energy that burns cleaner than oil. Let's try it with the brand new rav 4 ev now and 50% efficient natural gas generation to get to the plug

74 mpge x (50% effieicncy GGE nat gas)x 93% effieicnt electricitytransmission = 34 miles /(gallon gasoline equiv natural gas). That seems pretty good for a heavy tall rav 4 on the highway. The new rav4 is 31 mpg x (84% gal gas/gallon oil)= 26 miles / gallon gasoline equivelent oil. That is highway test, on the city test the plug in really shows its advantage where the rav4 ev needs less than half as much natural gas energy than the ice version needs oil energy.

How about that tesla S?
97 mpge (50% efficiency GGE nat gas)x93% = 45 miles /(gallon gasoline equiv natural gas)

Now hill uses mostly Solar and John uses mostly wind instead of natural gas, but its important if you are really worried about it to figure out what your source is. I would much rather use a gallon equivalent of natural gas than oil That is gallon equivalent in energy only. Natural gas is less expensive and produces less pollution including ghg for equivalent energy than gasoline. Some people are going to do worse on a mix of coal but often this will still be better in a plug-in than using oil.

Bottom line from the sales figures is the phevs are selling much better than the BEVs, and I expect this to go on for at least the near term. Its not that easy to just hitch a trailer to a BEV and get good gas mileage. Many are fine with the limitations of a BEV, for those that aren't a phev should be able to work.

 

Oh look, now we're up to 10 pages!
Facepalm

 

Just think of all the page views and ad revenue we are generating for "priuschat" !

 

Because MPGe is make it easy for lazy Americans to compare efficiencies of other fuel sourced vehicles to gasoline ones. If the vehicle is burning gasoline for propulsion, onboard or on a trailer, then you just calculate MPG. No need to look up btu or kWh per unit for different energy sources to compare to gasoline's. It's just gasoline there.

What would your reaction be to GM using your math to calculate the MPGe of a pure serial hybrid burning gas? You'd agree with it, right. Cord length doesn't matter.

 

Then how do you explain the fact that I pay an effective cost of 8-12 cents per kWh to PG&E (covers most of Northern California) when I charge my car overnight?

In a few weeks, PG&E will be adding a new EV time of use rate that no longer uses price tiers to charge higher rates for higher power consumption. Overnight off-peak charging will always be just under 10 cents per kWh.

Right now, I pay $3.50-3.70 for a gallon of gas and average 46 miles on it. For around 12 kWh at 10 cents I drive about the same distance for $1.20.

Last time I checked, $3.60 for gas is 3x more than $1.20.

 

I'd say the GM serial hybrid (which does not exist, btw) shows the same idiocy of MPG(e)

The US has power plants that burn oil to make electricity. Do you calculate the MPG or the MPG(e) for those EVs that use that electricity to power their vehicles ?

Anyway, you are right; the length of the cord does not matter, which is why MPG(e) is bullshit. Electricity is a carrier, it is not an energy source. MPG(e) treats electricity as if it was a source.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with CAFE - except it doesn't include 3 ton SUV's etc etc. Gee I wonder why.

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