To Comment on EV and Hybrid Noisemakers

great idea, thanks!

 

I never understood people's inability to not notice more than a ton of machinery rolling towards them... I've never had that experience... I mean maybe there's something wrong with me to always keep my eyes open when walking around parking lots or crossing streets.

Didn't our parents tell us to look both ways when crossing the street? Or instead when we cross the street did they teach us to only listen for cars and not look?

 

I agree, singling out is bad. I don't mind the sound personally, but if it's required by law that my car have a certain sound at a certain volume, all cars should have to abide by that, not just hybrids and ev's.

 

At the strip mall where one of my local supermarkets is, I very frequently see people just cross the "street"/the parking lot across traffic w/o looking. They just go...

 

The noisemaker requirement is meant specifically to help the blind.

 

First off, do post the truth, your comments. Silence implies consent BUT please, please, please, compose and set aside and look again at it the next day. The more deadpanned serious, the more likely the response will be taken seriously even though this was by act of Congress and signed into public law.

Your comments, well crafted, can be the fodder for the most effective answer, public ridicule, but in an irony of life, we are the 'straight man.' Let a Colbert or Daily or half a dozen professionals pickup the line you give them and deliver the laughs at the Congress Critters, NHTSA and others who pushed for and passed this bad law.

There is a deadline so take a couple of weeks to do the job right.

Bob Wilson

 

If that's the case can you substantiate that? I Googled it and found nothing to support your claim... Is the ADA truly trying to protect the disabled by sponsoring this law or are you just saying that?

Is the ADA the driving force behind this effort?

Is there really a significant problem with blind people getting run over by electric cars? If so what about bicyclists, wheelchair users, pedestrians and pets not equipped with noise makers?

Don't get me wrong, I totally support the idea of a law that requires blind people being clearly designated with a special hat or jacket and anyone who they may collide with are required by law to say to them: "I love you."

It'd make being blind so much better! And who knows, maybe law enforced love could be applied to others as well?

 

Let's go over some basics:

* * * Begin quoted material * * *
If that's the case can you substantiate that? I Googled it and found nothing to support your claim... Is the ADA truly trying to protect the disabled by sponsoring this law or are you just saying that?
No, it was an effort by the National Federation of the Blind, other blind advocacy groups, and the Automotive Alliance, a Detroit-based, lobby group, along with collusion of some NHTSA appointees and staff.

Is the ADA the driving force behind this effort? No

Is there really a significant problem with blind people getting run over by electric cars? If so what about bicyclists, wheelchair users, pedestrians and pets not equipped with noise makers?
Not that I can find in the two NHTSA reports I've studied which are at best marginal. The first because of such small sample sizes. The second had a larger sample size but identified different risk maneuvers. When two studies hold dis-similar results, it suggests one or both are flawed. My work is here:
Prius Fatalities 2001-2007

Don't get me wrong, I totally support the idea of a law that requires blind people being clearly designated with a special hat or jacket and anyone who they may collide with are required by law to say to them: "I love you."

It'd make being blind so much better! And who knows, maybe law enforced love could be applied to others as well?
* * * End quoted material * * *

If you'll google "bwilson4web' and 'quiet cars' you'll get a synopsis of what I've been doing.

Bob Wilson

 

My guess is that some do gooders and politicians are trying to save the world from hybrids and plug-ins. I can only guess that these friends of man have a fear of loss of station if more efficient transportation takes over.

Far too many pedestrians and bicyclists are killed by cars. The drivers need to look out for them, they are the ones in the steel safety cage. I don't have modern statistics but this popped up first when I googled.

http://files.meetup.com/211111/analysis-blind-pedestrian-deaths.pdf

That stuff is quite moldy only going through 2006. Perhaps someone has better data about how many pedestrians prii kill.

 

If you'd use it, I'll update my study through the most recent years that we have data . . . probably 2011.

The NHTSA studies are flawed because they did not analyze the risks of all vehicle makes and models to find their risk rates. Worse, they don't weight fatalities because there are so few and this self-imposed blindness means they let the killers alone and effective action denied. There are parallels in other public health issues where facts and data are omitted, ignored for reasons having nothing to do with the ill effects that we universally condemn. But there is Occum's Razor.

Making a hybrid as noisy as the existing vehicles will at best only make them just as deadly.​

We know how to build and integrate into the Prius accident avoidance systems. Sad to say, you have to buy every 'bobble', 'eye-candy', 'useless junk' option first before you can pay for these advanced safety features. In effect, Toyota overloads this safety feature with a bunch of Marti Gras, beads and trinkets. But that is the solution that should have been mandated ... not the eye-candy but the advanced accident avoidance technology.

Bob Wilson

 

First off, the ADA is a law. It can't be the driving force for anything.

Second, how many of you have actually heard the noisemakers in your cars, and how many of you are having a knee-jerk reaction? The only time I hear the noisemaker in my pip is when I'm driving below 5 mph in a garage where the walls reflect the sound back at me. at any speed higher than that, road noise drowns out the noisemaker.

and yes, this is for blind people. this is their only way to know a vehicle is coming. why anyone would argue with this is beyond me.

one of the reasons why there were so few fatalities with Prius drivers is because i suspect that there are generally fewer accidents involving Priuses because of the demographics of the drivers. But going forward, I think we can all agree that hybrids and EVs will become more mainstream, and we can't rely on the driving characteristics of the drivers to provide the safety that blind people need.

 

We have a blind friend. He works with my wife, and as it happened they had a meeting to go to tonight, so she gave him a ride after work and they stopped by the house for a while.

I asked him about the politics of the noisemaker ruling, as some have said it was cooked up by the Detroit automakers to put hybrid cars at a disadvantage. In fact, he said that his organization, the American Council of the Blind, and the larger (rival) National Federation of the Blind put aside their policy differences and worked together to get the legislation passed. During the study period they actually had a hybrid brought to one of their conventions so that members could get first-hand experience of what it sounded like with and without a noisemaker.

We then talked about his experiences when out walking. He takes a bus to work, then from the bus station to his office he has to cross one very busy street and a couple of more local streets, all in a suburban Long Island downtown area. He says if there are audible traffic signals (which sound an alert when it's safe to cross) it's much easier, but otherwise he listens out and crosses when it sounds like the traffic has stopped, which means the light has changed.

On the less-busy streets with low-speed traffic he mostly relies on listening for cars approaching before crossing. Another problem is an area with a parking lot between two buildings, where the entrance/exit runs across the sidewalk. Here, he says, quite a few drivers don't pay much attention to pedestrians, and he has to be ready to dodge. He's also almost been nailed by someone backing out of a driveway without paying attention (a regular car); fortunately he heard the engine rev up and was able to get out of the way.

His other point was that he feels that many sighted people don't realize how much they rely unconsciously on their other senses, particularly hearing, to get cues about what's going on in the environment. Given a choice, he'd rather have all vehicles make some noise rather than none, and he has a tough time understanding why anyone would deny him that.

For me, the noise my C makes at low speed is hardly noticeable, and I wonder why some Prius owners are so vociferously opposed to it. I hope I never get too close to a visually handicapped person crossing the street or an oblivious pedestrian in a parking lot, but I'd rather know they have a least a chance of hearing me approaching and getting out of the way if for some reason I don't see them.

I'd be interested to know from those who are so vehemently opposed to the hybrid noisemakers if you've ever discussed the issue with an actual blind person.

 

Tsk tsk'ing about inattentive pedestrians wears thin: no one has 360 degree awareness, no one is constantly hyper alert. I think the noise makers are a good idea. Maybe marginally irritating at times, bu I can think of other things to get lathered about:

1. Alchohol in fuel.
2. Zero mile per hour bumpers.
3. Distracting/awkward dash instruments.
4. Poor rear peripheral visibility.

 

Just have everyone walk a dog. THEY can hear the car coming! On my way to work this morning I had to laugh, as I was gliding down the street a lady was walking her dog, and when it heard me coming I had its full attention! That dog must have really liked my car, its ears were full up and he was really looking at it.

 

They Hyundai Veracruz we had was much quieter than the Toyota Camry. I could hear the TCH from down the street, but not the HVC.

 

i wish i could like this 100 times

 

..but when we were little kids being taught how to cross the street, pedestrian texting while walking wasn't yet possible...

 

Ask your blind friend if he'd like to be in a conference call with you and me to discuss this issue. Send a private note proposing some times and I'll reply with the conference call number and time. If there are others interested, we can discuss the logistics 'offline' but you "ftl" asked the question and I am only interested in you, me and your blind friend in a conference call. Still, thanks for asking, I have a lot more history than this brief posting.

Three weeks after buying our first Prius in October 2005, I was showing it off to my co-workers and one was an 'earth mother' type at work. She surprised me by claiming hybrids are a hazard to the blind . . . in October 2005. But this was just a brief conversation in a parking lot returning from lunch.

I didn't get serious until two years before 'ftl' joined PriusChat:


Since then I've been in active communications with the NHTSA, the blind, and all parties involved in this nonsense including my former Congress Critter. I have a lot of more history but that is not why I'm replying.

I'm quite willing to chat with you and your bind friend . . . always have been. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to handle the logistics. Then we can post the results of our conversation.

Bob Wilson

ps. "lensovet"

You are invited and bring your 'blind friend' too. Just drop a PM.