Toyota plans to sell fuel cell car by 2015

Agreed its not going to work out of Cali.. but even there, its mostly a commuter, if someone wanted to head out of town it may not work.

This article has a map of the (mostly planned) Cali H2 stations.

So they will okay commuting around SF and LA.

Coming back to my point about garage hybrids and misleading GHG numbers. NHSTA 2009 data shows that 19.6% of all personal vehicle trip miles are > 100 miles (so garage hybrids have a lot of miles on the "ICE"). So if you want to exclude those for a leaf or other BEV, then you should exclude them for a PHEV as well.

The 2009 survey did not do long-distance breakdown, but the 2001 did and 75% of all miles on long-distanance trips are on trips > 300 miles,
so maybe 14% of miles will have to be on something other than the FCV.

 

BMW and Toyota expand collaboration with work on fuel cell system, sports vehicle, light-weight technology and Li-air battery


Fuel cell system. The companies are convinced that fuel cell technology is one of the solutions necessary to achieve zero emissions. BMW Group and TMC are to share their technologies and to jointly develop a fundamental fuel-cell vehicle system, including not only a fuel cell stack and system, but also a hydrogen tank, motor and battery, aiming for completion in 2020.

The companies are to collaborate in jointly developing codes and standards for the hydrogen infrastructure which are necessary for the popularization of fuel cell vehicles.

 

They're gona have to pick up the pace ... we're another year closer to the date getting moved back again ... at which time, they'll have to move the date back ... again (presuming history repeats itself again).

 

I keep wondering what they know that I don't. Or whether it is just a matter of playing the subsidies and hoping for some breakthrough.

 

I believe Toyota is still rolling out FCV in 2015.

2020 target is for the BMW version.

 

Hyundai plans to place a thousand Tucson ix35 hydrogen fuel-cell SUVs on the road by 2015.

Fuel-cell vehicles from Hyundai coming soon

“Battery-electric carmakers entered the market too early without resolving problems such as range anxiety and costs,” said Lim Tae-won, Director in charge of fuel-cell research at Hyundai-Kia, to Reuters before this year’s Paris Auto Show. “It was a hasty approach.”​

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Fuel-cell cars overcome range anxiety, he said, adding that the price of fuel-cell vehicles will match that of battery cars by 2020-25.​

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There are three major challenges for fuel-cell technology to overcome, said Ahn. "First, the cost is too high. Hyundai is targeting a $50,000 price tag (about half or so of the current cost) within a few years, due mostly to improved materials, better design, and automated production technology.

“Our second challenge is to ensure the durability of the system for a lifetime of operation,” he continued. “And the third big issue is the lack of a refueling infrastructure. It’s a basic chicken-and-egg issue that in the long term governments must help to establish.”

Hyundai America CEO Says EPA, Consumer Reports The Best At Fuel Economy Testing - HybridCars.com

In the same interview Krafcik also said that Hyundai is committed to becoming the first mass-producer of a fuel-cell car. The chief executive was so bold as to say that fuel cell technology is “more viable than EV over the long term,” and that electric vehicles seem like a “stepping stone” to fuel cell cars.​

 

Awesome to see more choices in alternative fuels.
For those poor individuals who's driving patterns don't allow them the improved convenience and performance of a pure BEV a hydrogen/battery hybrid should work pretty well.
However, I do wonder about the former 2015 plan. Would be nice to see some clarification.

 

10 years makes them newcomers. Hydrogen transportation has been promised "in just 10 years" since the 1970's as far as I remember. So good luck with hitting this target date. Other than that - I'm trying not to get sucked into this "yep, it won't be long now" zombie thread. Though I'm certain there will be lots more demo (lease only) cars put on the road - regardless of cost.

 

I'm not old enough to remember that, but I do remember the promise of production cars on the road now, and them being less expensive than bevs. Looking at the Tesla S and Nissan Leaf seems to contradict that. Here is the hope or hype
Autos: Toyota's plan rekindles hopes for the hydrogen car -- 08/15/2012 -- www.eenews.net

Fuel Cell partnership says 50,000 fcv in California by 2017. I can easily see that number of BEVs, but I'm not sure how you get there from here. As for Toyota -

Seems they have got the memo.

Uchiyamada is now Chairman, I'm sure that he will get Akido Toyoda to at least lose some money on thousands of fuel cell cars in 2015-2017. I agree with you though Hill, I seriously doubt that Toyota will blow loads of cash selling tens of thousands of fcv at a loss, when they can sell PHEVs at a profit. Uchiyamada is really talking about higher production in 10 or 20 years. If governments pay Toyota to make those tens of thousands, then they may make it on the road, but right now it looks more like 10,000 world wide.

They don't know anything you don't The Japanese and Korean goverments may put huge new taxes on gasoline in 10 years, and are willing to subsidise fuel cell car development. Toyota is taking the money and working on it, while also building gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, efficient cars, hybrids, and phevs - and bought part of tesla incase bevs take off.

 

Agreed. For Japan and Korea it makes great sense for the gov'ts to subsidize FC technology over petro fuel technology since neither is blessed with any significant national reserves. Both are completely at the mercy of Mr Market and all the crazies in the Middle East.

It's in their national insterests to pay makers and drivers NOT to use petrofuel in the long run. We in NA now have the luxury of not having to rely on the crazies. We may also soon be in a position to call the shots in the market.

What I could see developing is a 'fractured' market as regards to vehicle propulsion. As recent as 12 yrs ago nearly 100% of the fuel used for transportation originated as liquid oil ( some spots of NG being used ). Now in just 12 yrs time...

• Hybrids are well accepted
• NG vehicles are likely to explode .... in volume in many areas.
• BEVs are real options today in densely populated areas where the need is for short trips
• FCVs may be subsidized by national gov'ts so that the populace can be weaned off petrofuels

If I were King of the World.... I'd ban petro-burning ICE's within the limits of every major city, hybrids included. BEVs, NG vehicles, FCVs and mass transit run on one or more of these technologies would be the main vehicular options. Imagine the savings in petrofuel and lowered ghg emissions. Imagine the number of vehicles required to replace all those ICE's.

Now the volumes are attractive enough to mass produce the new technologies. Now the infrastructure modifications (BEV, NG, FC stations ) are easily quantifiable. Now the worst pockets of ghg emissions can become oases of cleaner air.

 

I trust his instinct for the potential of FCV based on his track record with Prius.

It may not be an instant hit but with the potential for incremental improvements, it may be the ultimate eco car in the long-term (2-3 generations).

 

I think the issue will not be his track record with the prius or his direction, it will be the infrastructure. BEV/PHEVs can find charging in a very ubquious infrastructure, and expanding it is an individual choice. H2 is not near as easy to build out.

An interms of its energy efficieny, the EREI is not as high renewables in a BEV/PHEV. I think think the real advantage will be when the car does its own H2 generation or home H2 generators are cheap enough to make it viable, and/or a PHEV FCV.. where the H2 is just for longer trips so the infrastructure demands are much smaller.

 

Pics of Toyota FCV caught testing. Looks just like a gas-electric hybrid.

 

Pic of Nasa using jet pack/type propulsion caught flying around:

On a NASA budget, you can afford things that the average Joe can not. Doesn't mean it ain't real ... doesn't mean it doesn't exist. No one's contending that point. But like hydrogen transportation, it's been around for over 4 decades withOUT successfully putting it in the hands of the majority. How come no one wonders why we're not using jet packs. Some how, with jet packs, we get it.

It doesn't mean I wouldn't want to fly around like that. It doesn't mean it's not cool. It doesn't say whether or not it wouldn't be convenient. Maybe some day? Like hydrogen, maybe tomorrow. Maybe some day we'll have a big straw all the way to the sun, where hydrogen exists in abundence, and we can just suck it down here into our gas tanks (tanks that somehow won't become embrittled by the hydrogen so easily). Maybe.
.

 

The Japanse government had pushed the bev as the car of the future. The Toyota track record was to say batteries are not ready for that, and came up with the low gas prius. It was an effort that we don't need to go all the way to zero to make progress.

In an effort in the early 2000s the automakers seemed to decide in group think that BEVs would not work. That is where this FCV effort and large government funding started to take off. Gasoline would get scarce, you need cars that use no gas eventually, and if batteries couldn't hack it you put in fuel cells. Batteries would only work for short range city cars.

What has changed since then? PHEVs seem to be the big change and that should have been obvious back then. Like the prius, you don't need to go to zero, you could simply go lower. That is where Toyota is putting the bulk of their effort today.

The other thing that happened is Tesla. Tesla seemed to prove that Batteries were good enough for most miles. Toyota was slowest here, but has hedged it's bet against BEVs by buying into tesla, using them for engineering a BEV - RAV4 BEV, and killing its idea of BEV city cars.

Fuel cells seem a bigger longshot than anytime in the last 15 years. Biofuels and PHEVs seem to have delayed the end of the ice. There is a 265 mile aer EPA BEV, the only issue is price not really charging speed or range. Toyota is betting on all the major horses in this race now, so they have to be right on at least one of the 3.

 

LOL hill.

If this is a Spirit Rover FCV, I would agree with you but this is a Toyota.

 

Mass producing Model S seems to be the obstacle for Tesla. Perhaps it is not viable and Toyota is all about mass production. An EV with 7,000 cells while keeping it under strict quality standard probably isn't viable. Sure, Tesla can do it for limited numbers.

Toyota has invested a lot of money in Lithium mines. They are thinking long-term and put their money where their mouth is, just isn't talking/hyping like others. The investment makes sense since Lithium battery can be used in HEV, FCV, PHEV, BEV, etc.

 

Using a fuel to make another fuel (Hydrogen) to power fuel cell vehicles, Why? Please help!

 

Double post. See below.

 

Combusting natural gas is inefficient (best case would be like Gas hybrid). It is better to convert it to hydrogen and then drive in FCV. Here we go again.