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New climate-related stuff

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I resist the urge to append this to Mojo/Evans.

    First Vaks et al in Science (paywalled, y'know what to do) looked at speleothems (we might as well say stalactites) in permafrost caves where they cannot form unless it is warm enough for liquid water. This is quite clever. In one cave there were few episodes in the last 5KY, in the other cave there were several. Few means that the locality did not get the memos about Minoan warming, medieval warming, etc. Perhaps the other cave did. There is something for everybody to like here! But in part, it is consistent with the lower-latitude glacial melt history, namely that now is an unusually warm climate during 5KY. Misinterpreting polar glacial ice core isotope records will not lead one to that idea. With apologizes to readers so inconvenienced.

    doi: 10.1126/science.1228729

    Second, Stott et al in Environmental Research Letters. This one is open access. In brief, they say that mainstream climate models may overestimate the next few-decades warming, and why they think so. Very interesting, and a bit more indication (were that needed) that the "warming team" does not control journal publications. This one gives perhaps a better look at model performance vs. recent T records than Mojo/Evans did, which is why I had to resist the urge to post it yonder. Mojo has warned me not to distract his whack-a-mole threads! So I shall not

    doi: ERL/8/014024

    By no means do these two represent all the latest/hottest in the climate-research literature, but there is quite a lot to track and I'd be pleased if somebody else here could find the time. What I hope (if not quite expect) is that IPCC AR5 will lower its expectations for CO2-induced warming a bit over the next few decades. They need more cred, and with 'anonymous donor' paying lot$ to dilute that at every stage, they need to pick a path that helps all the rest of us to decide now much (how quickly) to fund a non-fossil-C energy transition.

    Or, we could just follow the current C-path and see where that leads. The question is before us.
     
  2. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    The "constrained" estimate was interesting, in so far as I think I understood it, but by eye, it didn't change things much. Here are two scenarios of future forcings from that paper. The gray bar is conventional wisdom, the black lines bracket the "constrained" confidence interval. Again, by eye, the midpoint of the 2050 confidence interval dropped maybe 0.1C under the first scenario?

    [​IMG]
     
  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Thanks, the ice record should have given us a good idea of those local temperatures and this is more confirmation. Could you email me the paper?




    I think you have a typo in that doi, I couldn't find it.


    Or, we could just follow the current C-path and see where that leads. The question is before us.[/quote]
    I'm not sure what the IPCC could do to get the Chinese to pick a less carbon intense path. It seems the North America and Europe are reducing, perhaps not as fast as many would like, but that is more about the politics than the science.
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Environ. Res. Lett. 8 (2013) 014024 (8pp) doi:10.1088/1748-9326/8/1/014024
    The upper end of climate model temperature projections is inconsistent with past warming
    Peter Stott, Peter Good, Gareth Jones, Nathan Gillett and Ed Hawkins
    (should provide the correct location)

    "I'm not sure what the IPCC could do to get the Chinese to pick a less carbon intense path." Um, nothing I guess. What can the IPCC do to get anyone to pick?
    Meanwhile it has been in the news that CH is moving towards making its local carbon taxes/carbon markets national.
    If CH (I keep calling China that, even though it correctly refers to Switzerland) institutes a carbon tax before the USA, would that strike anyone here as odd?
     
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    The IPCC trying to get any country or government to pick anything can only backfire. They cease becoming (if they already have not) a unbiased science organization and become a political/economic organization.

    What would be China's reason for local carbon taxes/carbon market? Given the pollution problems with basic breathing in Beijing, could it be as a method for breathable air instead of any desire to help the planet outside of the capital?

    (Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stopping the runaway burning of everything burnable, but a VERY close look at how any economic taxing/market schemes actually work is needed to see if they are effective over decades or something that can be gamed for local benefit and global loss.)
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    New in Science today, another paleo-proxy T study suggesting current global T is higher than most since the most recent -20kya deglaciation. No tree rings were used, in case that matters. For some it may be one among many. For others, perhaps, another 'that doesn't prove anything'.

    I am not the adjudicator. Just the scout. We might have fun discussing whether the upward T trend since the Little Ice Age has become significantly faster in the current CO2 push.

    DOI: 10.1126/science.1228026

    Fun for me because it points to Steinhilber et al 2012 'solar forcing'

    DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1118965109

    Which tells quite a different story from the Zhou and Tung papers I keep pointing y'all to. Somebody will have to sort this out.
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Is the above related to the article I saw below? If supported, it seems to me it might link together several past articles or claims that seem not to fit either side of the louder 'popular debate'. (I don't read enough of the more technical press.)

    Nature: Global temperatures are close to 11,000-year peak
    SciAm repost: Global Average Temperatures Are Close to 11,000-Year Peak

    "After the ice age, they found, global average temperatures rose until they reached a plateau between 7550 and 3550 BC. Then a long-term cooling trend set in, reaching its lowest temperature extreme between ad 1450 and 1850.

    Since then, temperatures have been increasing at a dramatic clip: from the first decade of the twentieth century to now, global average temperatures rose from near their coldest point since the ice age to nearly their warmest, Marcott and his team report today in Science."
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Yes, fuzzy1's links refer back to Marcott et al paper I mentioned above

    DOI: 10.1126/science.1228026

    It giave a new (bent) view of the hockey-stick handle, but the blade remained strictly up. Of course this has been discussed at WUWT:

    Uh oh, there be grafting in Marcott et al | Watts Up With That?

    and I'd not want you to form your own conclusions w/o reading all that stuff. Probably there is more at Curry's climate etc., so please read that also.

    But when you are done, the matter before us remains. If the recent instrumental-T record shows nothing unusual compared to the paleo-T-proxies, then we may be in the clear for uncontrolled fossil-C burning. Or, if the new T path is faster, we might wish to reconsider 'burn it all as fast as possible'.

    The best fossil-C-burn path for the next few decades is not obvious to me. If it is obvious to you, I guess that you have some certainty, one way or the other.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I like it. From the nature article

    Global temperatures are close to 11,000-year peak : Nature News & Comment
    Translation, they were higher than this 25% of the time. That flies in the face of the MBH '98 rhetoric that the only thing going on is man made global warming, then again most serious scientist understood that artificial smoothing of the shaft of the hockey stick was pretty fake by now.

    Translation, fossil fuel burning is causing significant warming right now.

    These two snipets seem to contradict the loudest yells of the blogging camps. Hopefully more of this will get us back to the science. That yes there is significant natural warming and cooling, having nothing to do with man or his ego, and much of it is not well understood.
     
  10. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    How about this: if there was no human overpopulation on Earth, would there be no issues with climate changs?

    DBCassidy
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Tell that to the dinosaurs. As long as there are people, there will be some that want to blaime the wrong things. England with its tiny population was responsible for the most ghg. That was it the last time I checked, US may have it now, with less than half a billion people. China has only led for a couple of years, add it up through history, and the few have a big impact.
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Bumped, for couple of new publications in the 'not so bad news' related to climate change category.

    Climate sensitivity may be towards the low end of the 'IPCC AR4' range:
    http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ngeo1836.html

    Tropical lizards may not be (quickly) driven to extinction by increasing temperatures:
    Climate change may have little impact on tropical lizards: Study contradicts predictions of widespread extinction

    Somebody is intending to launch a microsatellite that will have high resolution for outgoing infrared from the Earth. I've lost the link, but it seems like it would attempt the goals of the ill-fated GLORY mission. Darn useful stuff; I hope it flies.

    Anybody see others fitting the category, fell free to add them here. For that matter, add links to any data/model based study indicating that the whole thing is an Imhofe-scale hoax. Those would deserve our attention as well.

    But guesses from affinity web sites, or already, debunked stuff? Perhaps other threads would be more suitable for those. Here we might better stick with the hard-core science stuff, with emphasis on 'maybe it won't be so bad, at least for a few decades'.
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    This just in:

    Global Warming and Neotropical Rainforests: A Historical Perspective
    Carlos Jaramillo and Andr´es C´ardenas
    Annu. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 2013. 41:741–66

    (abstract)
    "There is concern over the future of the tropical rainforest (TRF) in the face of global warming. Will TRFs collapse? The fossil record can inform us about that. Our compilation of 5,998 empirical estimates of temperature over the past 120 Ma indicates that tropics have warmed as much as 7◦C during both the mid-Cretaceous and the Paleogene. We analyzed the paleobotanical record of South America during the Paleogene and found that the TRF did not expand toward temperate latitudes during global warm events, even though temperatures were appropriate for doing so, suggesting that solar insolation can be a constraint on the distribution of the tropical biome. Rather, a novel biome, adapted to temperate latitudes with warm winters, developed south of the tropical zone. The TRF did not collapse during past warmings; on the contrary, its diversity increased. The increase in temperature seems to be a major driver in promoting diversity."

    A comparable review for the Asian and African tropics hasn't been done yet, but may be even more interesting. In glacial stages, with much lower sea level, SE Asia is like a whole 'nother continent, not separate islands. That is a big deal for plants and animals.

    Meanwhile at the ICDC9 (carbon) conference in Beijing, we have heard that rainfall patterns have been much more important than temperature (or CO2) to affect tropical productivity over the last few decades. Which makes us sad that rainfall remains difficult to predict. The 2005 and 2010 droughts caused a lot of tree mortality in Amazonas.

    Overall, we may hope that tropical systems that manage to avoid being cut or burned can handle century 21 century temperatures.
     
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  14. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    For the record ,this is yet another liar study completely discredited by Ross McKitrick

    11,000-year climate study’s 20th-century claim is groundless | FP Comment | Financial Post

    "a remarkable admission: “[The] 20th-century portion of our paleotemperature stack is not statistically robust, cannot be considered representative of global temperature changes, and therefore is not the basis of any of our conclusions.”>Marcott

    "What made their original conclusion about the exceptional nature of 20th-century warming plausible was precisely the fact that it appeared to be picked up both by modern thermometers and by their proxy data. But that was an illusion. It was introduced into their proxy reconstruction as an artifact of arbitrarily redating the end points of a few proxy records."


     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    No time to appreciate a new N=6000 compilation that suggests things might not be all that bad? All righty then.

    The Marcott does offer some similarities, in that it compiled a lot of proxy records. Perhaps that is the reason to offer (distract with) it here. Two issues seem to have been raised about that study. First, that proxies (after high-frequency filtering) could have missed rapid temperature spike(s) in the past. Second, that records of different types should never be joined, under any circumstances.

    I suppose the way to approach the first is to create synthetic time series, subject them to like filtering, and find out just what size of spike could be rendered completely invisible by the filter. Then we'd know what excursions could have gone undetected, which seems quite useful.

    The second objection strikes me as philosophical, and therefore not amenable to analysis or correction. If one simply believes that records from different sources can never be joined, well then the conversation is over. If the can, possibly, be joined, then the topic becomes how to do it in a non-misleading way.

    So for me, this would be the way to approach Marcott. Not McKitricks' way, but I guess that's no surprise.

    The tragedy here applies both to Marcott and the (undiscussed) Jaramillo and Cardenas. Can massive data-compilation efforts be turned to nothing just by somebody saying so? I certainly hope not. Besides figuring out new things, using previous observations to figure out 'old things' seems like a really useful aspect of science. I'd not allow one voice to render it moot. With or without name calling; it makes no difference.

    I suppose it is in the hands of others to decide how many (if any!) of the tools of science should be abandoned on behalf of the 'tools' of an industry. But my preference is not to abandon any. Too many unknowns remain in the earth system, and we have everything at stake.
     
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  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    A more meaty treatment is here

    Climate science once again finds itself fighting with hockey sticks | Ars Technica

    with a link to tamino apparently doing something like the analysis I suggested above. I can't read wordpress sites though.

    This raises an interesting parallel. Here I am, in a large Asian country, where there are parts of the internet I am not supposed to know about. The rest of you, there you are, with denier/sceptics/whatever is the most polite term. There are parts of science that they don't want you to know about, or use, or benefit from. With regard to internet filtering here, it is a matter of my own choice and I accept it voluntarily.

    I'd urge you not to surrender any aspect of rational inquiry without considering the issue. Do the people who don't want you to know details of previous climates, have your own best interests at heart?
     
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  17. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    The objection is that Marcott manipulated data with the intention to deceive.
    Fortunately someone realized his doctorate paper used exactly the same data,but had no hockey stick.
    Then right before the IPCC deadline, suddenly Marcott reinvents his phd study to include a fake hockeystick.
    The 3rd issue, which you ignored ,was that he changed dates on a few proxies making them outliers and that mainly produced the hockeystick.
    BTW none of the proxies he used had any hockeystick.
    Yours and Taminos solution to mixing resolutions is silly .
    The poor resolution has already truncated the data.If you want to add fine resolution data onto it,you have to truncate it in the same way.
    Meaning you can add a hockeystick only if you truncate it to a flat stick,the same as the rest of the 10,000 years.
    Marcott admits the recent data is "not robust"
    What more do you need?






     
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  18. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    The peer reviewers of this paper were either incompetent or were involved in a "pal review" conspiracy.
    Your comment suggests that any journal peer review process is not useful.
    Being that Ross McKitrick is an expert journal peer reviewer,I can only imagine why you would not take his comments seriously.
    You must condone the fraudulent pal review process.
    Personally I think the editor of "Science" and the pal reviewers should resign in shame.

     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Marcott presents yet another example where the data could be re-analyzed by anyone, by any (disclosed) procedures, to determine whether there were temperature excursions that these authors missed. A great opportunity sadly being missed.
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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