Did Honda Give Up On The Insight Without A Fight?

The Honda IMA hybrid system wasn't/isnt as advanced as the HSD in Toyota/Lexus products. That EPA estimate of 43 hurt when most non hybrids can get "40". They have supposedly fixed it with the new Accord Hybrid making it competitive and even better than the Camry and Avalon Hybrids on paper but only the real product will tell. I do like the fact that per many sources, the Honda Hybrids can still function as a regular ICE car even if the entire hybrid system fails
Quote from Wiki:

 

I think the Honda Insight looked the better car. It was cheaper and not quite as good, but would have been a great seller if it just hadn't been so compromised in so many places. It came in second to the Prius in everything except price. It was just ok, not excellent. It was happy to be second best.

I also get the impression that Honda have given up on hybrids, at least over here in the UK. There was all the fanfare about the Insight and the CRZ but these have just fizzled out.

I agree, I think Honda need to do a lot more than something to get back in the game. Somebody, somewhere at Honda needs a jolly good kick up the ****! They were once the leaders and now fading into insignificance.

 

Funny timing, I noticed a nice silver Honda Insight while running an errand this afternoon in my 2003 Prius:

As I was passing the Insight, I thought 'now if that car had shown up in 2001-03, it might have been a Prius-killer.'

It is in good competition for the NHW11 Prius:

	Column 1
0	[th]EPA Combined[th]passenger[th]luggage[th]model year
1	[tr][td2]42 MPG[td2]85 ft{3}[td2]16 ft{3}[td]Insight 2012
2	[tr][td2]41 MPG[td2]89 ft{3}[td2]12 ft{3}[td]Prius 2003
3	[tr][td2]50 MPG[td2]87 ft{3}[td2]17 ft{3}[td]Prius c 2013
4	[tr][td2]46 MPG[td2]96 ft{3}[td2]16 ft{3}[td]Prius 2009

Source: Fuel Economy

Today's Honda Insight would have shutdown the 2001-03 Prius. But on paper, it isn't in the same efficiency range as the 'Prius c'. In size it is OK but the EPA numbers are not pretty. As for the NHW20 (2004-09), the current Insight was never serious competition and the ZVW30 (2010-current) blew it away. Honda had a first 13 years ago by coming to market in the USA just ahead of the NHW11. But they came with a micro-Insight and never really saw 'the big picture.'

The current Honda Insight is a nicer car than the Civic Hybrid but I bumped my head, hard, trying to get in the Insight and felt like I was 'in a coffin' close. A fine car for smaller people . . .

Bob Wilson

 

They also got a lot of bad publicity for pushing the pack limits on the civic hybrids resulting in many many many pre-mature deaths. It is a good thing the car can work without the hybrid system, because they just stop working much earlier than a Prius when taking averages.

Also the Honda Civic Hybrid my dad uses is a 7th generation (2001-2005?), one of the first civic hybrids before they moved to the more "space ship" design. I also had a 7th gen civic non-hybrid. The transmissions were not robust. My civic needed a new first gear around 120K miles. Not what I expect from Honda. My dad's needed a new transmission around 80K miles, but he drives it hard. He also replaced the traction battery around 110K miles in the civic. At the same time, the dealer did the firmware flash that he had never done, and his mileage never recovered. The firmware flash was to limit the use of the hybrid pack to extend the pack life, but that made the usable capacity so low it was almost insignificant. The fact that the engine had to be on to get air conditioning, and that it could not creep at all or move in pure electric at all, meant that the fuel efficiency was horrible for a hybrid. To many cost saving measures, and it just was crap. We have since moved onto to Toyota Hybrids and have a Prius, had a RX400h and now a RX450h.

 

Did Honda Give Up On The Insight Without A Fight?


Nope.
They just got beat.

I considered an Insight briefly a few years back, and I actually like the car....but they made too many engineering compromises with the IMA system, and the driveline components of the Toyota seem to be MUCH more robust.

You have to remember that when the new Insight came out, they was several thou less than a G3. Enough people (like me) were doing a stare and compare between the two that it probably accelerated the development of the C-model which is probably the better car all things considered.
I don't have any stick time in the Trial-sized Prius, so I really can't say.

The Insight is a good car....and its cheaper than the C-type - but in this case the extra $$ is worth it by far.

Too little.
Too Late.

 

You should talk to my brother about his 2000 Accord. That transmission behind the V6 in the Accords and Odessys was trouble prone. Then a friend's Accord had a defect in the rear brakes. Honda's were once reliable, efficient, no frills cars that one could have fun with if inclined.

Then they got complacent and bought into the hype of their reputation. The newest Civic is one of the quickest turn arounds for a redesign in automotive history. That's because after being trashed by CR, and being owned by the competitors', the previous Civic needed to go. You can point to good sales, but they were fueled by discounts after the CR article.

The belief that Honda could do no wrong, is why dealers felt they could up charge on the Insight and other models.

Now the Insight is a decent competitor to the Prius C. It comes down to the buyers needs. The Insight has a longer cargo area which is more versital (see C-max vs. Prius LB discussions). For those driving more highway, it has a better efficiency. The Fuelly average for the Insight is above EPA, while the Gen3 Prius trended below.

During its release, the Insight was hamstrung in part by the currency difference. Many were pre-hoping it would be a thousand or so less than the price announced. A 'hybrid for the people' kind of implied it would be more affordable, but it ended up being close to what the gen2 was going for. Then the gen3 made a compelling arguement for paying the difference. So many people that looked at the Insight opted for the Prius or the cheaper, more functional Fit. The price might have been to lessen competion with the Fit.
Then the Insight didn't have all the latest technology for the engine. The reason was to save costs, but it also gave a reason for buyer to upgrade to the new Civic hybrid. Back then, I said Honda should have just forgotten about Insight2 and just brought the Fit hybrid over. People may have been more willing to pay the price to get a Fit with a hybrid. There would less Prius comparisons to highlight the defficiencies of the system. Which could have been countered by the usable cargo space of a Fit.

It does seem Honda has given up on it. The fallout from the Civic hybrid issues might be enough to back off from IMA. But the facelift did a slight improvement in fuel economy, and a redesign should be coming out soon. So we probably have to wait on calling it until then. Honda could just be putting all their publicity effort into the Accord hybrids.

 

Electric,

I'm not sure where Honda is planning to go with IMA / mild hybrids. Acura just put out the ILX hybrid which is mild like Civic.

At least we have the Accord FULL hybrid coming in a few months which I hope they are serrious about. I haven't seen on Accord Plugin, it seems to be vaporware.

I wonder if Honda is planning an Insight full hybrid for 2015 or 16 model year. IOW, a Prius carbon copy. Who knows.

Civic hy, current Insight and CR-Z are all dead to me.

Must say Honda does some weird stuff. Couple years ago they brought out a new motorcycle, DN-01. I doubt they sold a few. They had it for a year or so, now it's gone. No sweat to them, they're still nearly the largest moto mfr. on the planet neck and neck with Harley.

But it was only a quick mild refresh of door panels, trim, bumpers, wheels, the like.

Little off topic, but 9 months after buying the Accord Coupe, Honda sent a letter saying to bring it in to reprogram the ECU to correct possible oil burning during cold start or SLT. I did. I have no idea if this is related, but shortly thereafter I noticed the slightest pinging during moderate acceleration which was totally not fuel related. Big turnoff that they needed to reprogram an ECU.

back to topic.

At least in the hybrid segment.

 

I have seen the Plug in Accord...havent had a chance to drive it as they had just got them in and had to go through their PDI before being put out front. I was there looking at CRV and saw the truck dropping them off..wheels are a dead giveaway. That dealer currently has 3 in the inventory.

The one closest to my house shows 2 and I will be going by today just to look and see how it drives for my own curiosity.

 

I actually looked at the Insight a little after it first came out, after all of the whoop-de-do settled down. This was during the last of the days where you could get a G3 at a decent discount, and you're 100 percent right.
It's a good car, and I personally think that it's MUCH better than the C-model at many things but the interior is almost as Spartan as a Prius, they up-sell basic options even worse than Toyota does. I can forgive all that but as much as I like to bitch at the folks in Aichi, Japan for their marketing hijinks, the G3 HAS a good drive-train!
If I'm going to pay a hybrid premium, I want a damn HYBRID.....not a Hybrid wanna-be.
I might have forgiven Honda for these transgressions and bought one anyway, but Honda is/was trending the wrong way in terms of initial quality and reliability......something that's also happening to Toyota but not as rapidly with the Prius.
A good friend of mine works on Hondas and he says that it's ABSOLUTELY THE BEST car that you'll ever own.....for the first 100,000 miles. After that? Not so much.
I read some things about the IMA that left me wondering about the 250,000 mile (my benchmark) reliability of this platform.
You can almost bet the ranch that if you buy a Prius (new) and do all the stuff on the maintenance schedule, and don't drive like an idiot that you're going to get lunar mileage in one without spending 20-percent of the value of the car in repairs.
I can't say that about the Insight, which is a shame.
I personally like the car MUCH better than the Trial-Sized Prius.

 

But isn't that what most refreshes come down too?
We might see new options or even engines, but those can show up without the refresh.
Of course, if Honda hadn't dropped the ball to begin with, a quick refresh wouldn't have been needed.

 

But on the bright side, at least Honda did the refresh quickly. Wheels on Civic EX are nice.

besides that, any responses to the notion Honda might very well make an 'Insight III' a virtual copy of the Prius liftback since they have the 'two motor' (full) hybrid system in Accord this year? Anyone, hello.

 

While viewed as a lesser solution, an assist hybrid can be effective at reducing gas usage. An advantage with it in Honda's case is cost. Toyota didn't bring out the Prius C until after 3 generations of cost reductions on the HSD. Honda's system is only on its first. They don't want the price of the Insight to increase away from the C and closer to the Civic hybrid. The Civic is also one of their flagship models. It will see a full hybrid before the Insight.

So I see the next gen Insight staying IMA. Hopefully, the engine technologies that were originally held for the Civic hybrid will be implemented in it, which should give its sticker numbers an increase. It also could benefit from some aero tweaks. As long as the Insight isn't cancelled, it should get the full hybrid system down the line, once production costs are reduced.

 

I think a full hybrid Civic might be a waste. Would increase cost and doesn't have cargo flexibility a larger Insight would have. Honda is selling 500 ish Civic hybrids a month. They'd be better to chew into the 12,000 Pri liftbacks a month, and IMO, there would be room to attract some would be Prius buyers over with this -

Insight III - independent rear suspension, more refined interior.... but, they don't have seat time with full hybrid.

 

Honda to end Europe sales of Insight, CR-Z hybrids

 

Honda are let down by their dealers. We sold our Civic and got a second Toyota because of their 'service' or lack of.

What you also forget is that in Europe it's lots of varied countries with diesel fuel cheaper than petrol in many of them. Fuel costs are high and manuals are preferred in many countries too. The hybrid Insight just isn't fuel efficient compared to competitors and the gen3 Prius is losing ground too. In America the Prius is king because it gets probably double the mpg's of its nearest competitor. Here it's a different matter and there are now many similar sized cars offering similar or better fuel economy - including automatics!

The latest Mercedes C class offers a fuel efficient clean diesel that gets very near the fuel economy of the Prius.

New Mercedes C-Class returns 70 mpg | Next Green Car

Fuel economy on the Euro cycle of 70 mpg UK (58mpg US) for the manual or 65 mpg (54 mpg US) for the automatic. That compares to the Prius rating of 72.4 mpg UK (60.2 mpg US).

The cost of the car isn't too far away either. The Prius range here is from £21,850 to £25,100 and the above Mercedes is £26,800 for a PREMIUM brand.

So why on Earth would you pay £20,500 for a Honda Insight hybrid? New Insight 2014 | Range Overview | Honda UK

If you were of sound mind you wouldn't! That's why Honda are pulling hybrids from the European market. Their hybrids are too expensive for little or no benefit. One could question why they're so expensive here and whether they're over priced deliberately? But that's one for the tin hat brigade.

 

If we are going larger. Why not go with a hybrid hatch or wagon of the Civic or Accord? The hybrid Fit might already have a cargo advantage over the Insight2. While it isn't planned for North American, a sedan and SUV based on it is planned.

Don't independent rear suspensions eat into cargo space, which is more noticable in a hatchback?