Dashboard Feb-May 2013

Old conversations. I don't really want to rehash that.

I believe part of the Toyota foot dragging was verticle integration with Panasonic lithium car battery technology, which appeared behind the time. Since then Panasonic bought Sanyo, which had really good lithium, and they used that sanyo tech in the prius phv. That purchase cost Panasonic a lot of money,and part of their poor financial condition today, but Toyota gets some of the best lithium for their next cars. I don't think they fully trusted the new batteries, and went a little small. They can easily correct this in the next version.

 

It is not useful to compare PiP vs Volt MPGe since the PiP's rating is only for speeds less than 62mph.

If we restricted the Volt to below 62mph, what would the MPGe rating be?

 

Invalid question. Volt does not restrict it. That's the point. It has been somewhat of a selling point for the Volt too.

PiP restricts EV operation below 63 mph. It is also a selling point from efficiency point of view (not only for EV but also for HV operation). A lot of people don't see this. Otherwise, PiP sales would be higher.

 

Efficiency needs to be measured on the same test, Otherwise its not a measure of efficient but of mixiedefficient and test difficulty. Compare them all on the basic NEDC UN ECE R101 and the leaf is more efficient. The basic NDEC yields the 2013 leaf at 200km, the 2012 Pip at 23km. The 2011 ampera got 83mh SO that is is 10.8 kw/100km 134kwh/100km and 155 kWh/100km. So leaf is more efficient and the PiP is more efficient than the Amerpa/Volt.


THe PHEV can cherry pick EV Miles only by not using EV at speed >62 ro high accelerations, anyone can choose to drive easy and <62mph all the time, its their choice.

 

Fortunately, word is slowly getting out.

My 17-mile commute includes 9 miles above the 100 km/h (62.1 mph) threshold. People assume (in part due to the misleading from EREV promotion) that the battery-pack would only be used during the slower portion of the drive. That just plain is not true. You still get a substantial plug-in boost even at the faster speeds.

That's pretty easy to see too. My first 0.5 mile is EV. The following 9 miles is in the 65 to 70 mph range, depending on traffic. Today, the screen displayed 119 MPG when I finally slowed down where the highway changed to 55 mph and the engine stopped. I ended up parking with the average having climbed up to 209 MPG.

Sales will climb as the people discover how PiP actually works.

 

I agree that the comparison needs to be on the same test.

For a vehicle with two fuels, how and when which fuel is used makes the difference in efficiency. PiP selects the fuel wisely (per design/threshold).

The result speaks for itself. Which mid-size plugin hybrid can get 132 MPGe on EV miles and 54 MPG on regular gas?

 

I make a similar commute, 21 miles each direction, without using any gasoline.

 

Yep, as the word is slowly getting out and the impact on the light blue line and the slow and steady growth of PiP sales is readily apparent.



Compared to the regular prius the $7800 price premium ($5300 after tax credit), for reduction of about 113 gallons over a year really gets people excited. Especially compared to leasing a Leaf at lower cost and reducing gas to nearly zero.

 

I know this may sound crazy to some of you.. but could Volt sales be doing so well because Chevy is damn near giving them away?



I think we already know Toyota is unwilling to discount PiP leases to fully capture the Fed tax credit. You guys all want to come up with reasons why the PiP isnt selling well, but maybe Toyota just has no interest in this "fight" at this time.

If you look at PiP sales towards the end of 2012 when East coast Toyota dealers were "damn near giving them away", the sales numbers were much higher then too.

* this is in Southern California, by the way

 

That is a gimmick lease. It has 9520 due at signing, which is is paying up front for$256 per month in lease costs, so the actually lease costs are effectively 355 a month
Lots of hidden games in that one. Avoid that dealer.

 

Although net $22,495 after $7,500 tax credit is the lowest I have seen. mmmm, might have to grab another one.

 

It says $9250 due at signing, but it also offers $4000 Trade equity/Customer Cash + $4250 Cap Ex Reduction Rebate + $1000 Competitive Lease Conquest (if available).. so wouldn't that cover the $9250 "due at signing"?

 

None according to EPA results.
Using standard test results for one model and person experience for another is a false comparison.

And diesels will nearly always be more efficient than a hybrid on the freeway.
More point was that comparing BEV to PHV to call ones efficiency good or bad is a poor measurement because one has variables the other doesn't.

And what about the other 64% of the gasoline's energy? Did it fly off to warm the hearts of orphans?

Wasted energy is still energy used by the system.

Bob, this is what happened to threads started by Volt owners who honestly just wanted to share experiences.

Drinnovation, I think, is the only one sticking around from those threads.

 

And paid for by the owner.

 

Having witnessed the past back and forth, I can understand the snark. I also think fanaticism is the bane of humanity. So I have a negative reaction to it in all forms.

 

Do you have PiP and Leaf electricity consumption (kWh/100mi) figure?

Both would ran that test cycle in EV mode. That would be a comparable test.

 

The JC08 test may be gentle enough to keep the PPI in EV mode without gas use.
On that the Leaf is rated 114 Wh/km.
The PPI used 8.74 km/kWh factored from JC08 results. Which is 114 Wh/km, assuming the posted results round out the decimals.
The Fit EV is 106 Wh/km.

Green Car Congress: Toyota starts taking orders for soon-to-be-launched Prius PHV plug-in hybrid in Japan; targeting 35,000-40,000 units per year
Green Car Congress: Updated Nissan LEAF available in Japan; range improved by 14%; new motor uses 40% less dysprosium
Honda Fit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

It went to the same place the waste energy involved in electricity production went.

Read BobWilsons's posts on efficiency in this thread. The motive source is removed from the calculation. I think you can view this question as genset onward, meaning drivetrain from the driveshaft onwards.

 

And everyone on this forum should want this to happen. The number of drivers who could make maximum use of the PiP is far more than what is sold. It's also true that other EVs and PHEVs will be optimal for a great many more, but different drivers. Toyota had a great head start, but I really, really hope they realize they can no longer depend on the sluggishness of their competition any more.