Tax, Tax, Tax.

Not that I disagree with you, but why is it better? It seems your response is typical; "someone else other than me should be paying higher taxes". That is how some non-hybrid owners perceive us, and that we think we deserve special treatment. What about hybrid drivers that drive many more mile than average - are they not consuming MORE non-renewable resources since roads are mostly made of asphalt/petroleum products? I agree the gasoline tax should be raised - double or triple what it is today, and but it still doesn't equalize what hybrid owners should pay for pure road use compared to non-hybrid owners. I can't believe how people would be discouraged from saving $1000's if they have to pay a small tax/fee. Don't get me started on EV owners thinking they should be able to charge for free either.

 

I believe the states proposing Hybrid tax have amongst the lowest State gas tax rate.

Perhaps they are looking at it wrong.

People are not stupid. You will see a rash of out of state registrations when the Hybrid tax comes on board

 

Prius does not equal hybrid. These are taxes on hybrids. Some of which whose fuel economy is rivaled by some non-hybrid vehicles. A few actually do worse. So they are being taxed more while not seeing much in savings for being a hybrid.

You are also over looking the fact that hybrids cost more than non hybrid counterparts. Which means they already paid more on sales tax. In states that have annual property taxes, like Va, the higher sales price means higher annual taxes. These and fuel taxes all go into the general fund. So hybrid owners are paying an additional tax over what they they would be paying in they bought a similar fuel efficient car that is cheaper. A tax singling out hybrids is just going to have people reconsidering the non hybrid.

A per mile tax is the only fair way of paying for the roads, and it doesn't have have to be intrusive. Just take an annual odometer reading. It is already done with registrations and inspections.

 

Virginia reduced gaso tax to lowest in continental USA (3.5% sales tax), yet added Hybrid fee.

In VA, the hybrid fee calculation is based on Prius (50 MPG) vs. average car (23 MPG) asking Prius drivers to repay both Federal+State avoided gasoline tax revenues (18.5 + ~11.5 cents = 30 cents/gal).

But it is not fair to just tax cars cars called "hybrids". In Virginia this means some hybrids getting only 22 MPG still have to pay $64/yr extra tax. If the rationale is that all cars getting better than 23 MPG owe a fuel tax, then they should tax all cars more based on EPA mileage over 23 MPG.

Registering out-of-state is illegal. Virginia had such a problem with out-of-state registration (due to high annual car taxes here) that most areas the law is you cannot keep any out-of-state car in Virginia unless you pay the car tax. The law reads "any car garaged in Virginia" owes the car tax.

Trollbait said-

I agree with you, but in Virginia the annual car tax is a local tax, not general fund. So basically we have the State wanting more revenues (Hybrid fees) even though Prius already pay heavy taxes at the local level.

 

Someone mentioned it before. The tax is a nuisance tax. There are so few Hybrid registered owners that the $ raised will be so little it will not make a difference. Most people will gladly pay it and the Gov will probably spend more money setting it up, in software programs, administering it, managing it that what is left will be lucky to pay a few hours of the states road maintenance. It just shows that Gov can be stupid. They would make more money cutting costs or taking a long hard look at Gasoline tax which is among the lowest in the nation for some of these states and is more equitable. It is already set up. Don't have to recreate the wheel.

Surprised the Auto Manufacturers are not fighting this or perhaps they are and we just don't know it.

Our country was founded on it's frustration with being taxed.

Va and many States does not get that the Typical Joe 6 Pak is already taxed to the gills. Much of tax is so buried and hidden that we as Americans are taxed among the highest. I pay federal, state and local income taxes, property taxes, school taxes, bonds, sales tax, gas tax, Social Security Tax, Medicare tax, mosquito abatement tax, Water tax, electric tax, cell phone tax, internet tax, blah blah blah. Now a Hybrid tax? Geez Louise ! What's going on here?

 

I accept the fact that hybrids in general cost more than their non-hybrid counterpart. But I'll bet most people are like me; I have $25-30k to spend on a vehicle and I'll spend that much no matter what I buy, hybrid or not. So the "paying higher sales and property tax" argument is debatable. If $64/yr is going to push people to not buy a hybrid, I don't think they were highly motivated to buy one in the first place. Bottom line is the arguments against a small fee or tax on hybrids are valid, as long as it doesn't involve math or fairness to justify the bias.

 

This is the big picture: Our highways and bridges are underfunded and falling apart.

The revenue it will take to fix them is going to hurt in the pocketbook, but politicans are attempting to find a way to get sneaky in raising the money. I know this from experience working at a state job. Instead of honestly raising for everybody the income or sales tax, they will look at 'sin taxes' or something obscure such as taxing hybrids.

Lots of federal money is spent on highways - it should be less. Politically unpopular, but raise most of it at the gas pump instead. It will wake up the public on how much cars and transportation really cost - encourage many individuals to get more fuel-efficient cars. It's also social engineering that's libertarian at the same time.

As hybrids and EVs gain market share, maybe some of the politicians can come up with a more sensible way of taxing them than this proposal.

 

In threads like this, so many different and independent aspects get all mixed up, making the issue opaque and emotional instead of analytical. I would recommend we all try and separate the different aspects so we can figure out what the real issues are. Here is one breakdown:

1) Infrastructure underfunding. Most think that it is a result of too little taxing. Is it? If gas taxes are increased and all the extra income spent on stuff other than infrastructure, how will raising even more taxes (from ANY source) improve infrastructure. If spending money on a new sports complex always is the highest priority, then the only thing raising taxes does is make the sports team owners richer, not the infrastructure better.

2) Gas taxes must be "raised". Classic case of presenting a yes/no question with both answers being wrong. I would contend the issue is that gas taxes are set on an absolute scale instead of a percentage of cost scale. The present setup guarantees that gas taxes will ALWAYS eventually sink too low. The real issue is setting the right tax method, not an absolute value. (e.g. If property taxes were set by raw area instead of final value, the "property tax" unfairness would be a nationwide ongoing disaster.) On the present course, every single purchase will be taxed based upon "fairness" evaluations instead of revenue needs.

3) If "fairness" is an ongoing issue, then the tax is fundamentally flawed. I hope this gets someone's attention. Please think carefully about this.

 

$64 in hybrid tax, and a nickel here and a dime here. When does the madness stop?

 

" ______ " and taxes. Fill in the blank.

 

"No new taxes" - that's a good one! Then are you willing to reduce the amount you drive, say by 33% to compensate for lack of funding for our roads? Who cares if the gas tax revenue is not directly allocated to roads. It's not like there is enough revenue anyway to begin to address the crumbling infrastructure.

It's so easy to say what we don't want, but I don't see anyone coming up with solutions except for not wanting to pay more, and then we get in our cars and drive off. We all know what they solution is - more money, unless the laws of economics have changed. We can't pretend that $1 of tax will buy a $3 solution. Stating that you don't want more taxes does not make the problem go away.

 

I think you are correct about finding the sneaky ways to raise tax money. We've probably raised that to fine art status in VA. The problem as I see it for Hybrids, we have no advocacy group. For example, Plug-In America and many other groups support and defend Plug_ins. But hybrids are more vulnerable, with no political defense.

 

I have a solution. Manage the money you collect in taxes better. The problem with Gov is every 1 of 3 dollars goes toward fat cat pensions and Cadillac health care plans for people who don't even work. Gov unions over multiple decades negotiated unrealistic pension and health care benefits. So money that would be spent on roads is paying for fat cat benefits and ones we cannot afford. Put gov on socal security, Medicare and 401K programs Similar to the private sector and rebuild the roads.

Don't get me Started with food stamps and welfare programs. You got 1 year and job training. Get a Job. Don't want to find a job than find a relative or a non profit to support you.

Gov is not a bottomless pit for the lazy.

Corporate Welfare no more. End the tax loopholes to big oil etc. You get the loophole great. You show a profit pay the loophole money back to gov and the tax payer and build the roads.

How about no more foreign aid. Why are we sending Billions to Egypt and Turkey? Stop that and build American roads.

Why did we go to war 2 times in Iraq for then to award lucrative oil drilling contracts to Chinese oil companies? We went to war raised our debt to record levels only to never get paid back. Unbelievable

We need Leadership in this country. Immigration. How about background checks and psychological testing so our marathon runners and school children stop getting blown up or shot. Simple request.

Why cannot American Engineers get work but our H1B visas are fast and furious. Prove to Gov you tried to hire a American born employee before you go abroad.

How about repatriate American Corporate profits from foreign subsidiaries that can only be used for R and D

The Prius driver is the last guy you want to tax. He is most likely just a guy driving to work paying the mortgage and putting little Johnny through college

 

Exceptions prove the rule. Right wingers and the oil companies, indistinguishable really, have been gunning for hybrids and high mileage cars since the mileage and pollution rules started. Fact of life.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying and if it were possible would go a long way to cutting or eliminating the deficit. Still doesn't leave enough funding to do everything needed to repair or replace our crumbling infrastructure. We need $trillions of revenue, and $billions of solutions doesn't cover it.
But making a blanket statement that Prius drivers being the last guy to tax is not helpful. Statements like this is what led us to the situation we're in now. EVERYONE else feels the same way, and if everyone feels they are the last to be taxed, then all we end up is the stupid patchwork mess that politicians come up with so they can get re-elected. The current tax system is unfair in that it pits taxpayers against each other because someone always loses so someone else can win. A lower, flatter, broader tax system where everyone pays a fair share based on their earnings and what they consume is the only way to make it truly fair. We should not have a society where almost 40% of the population contributes nothing in tax revenue (excluding local sales tax). It really irks me that such a huge percentage of the population are "leeches" on the rest of society. I've wondered what the revenue amount would be if all personal and corporate income was taxed at a flat 15% with no exceptions, exemptions, or deductions?

 

I agree that as more vehicles move towards electric and hybrids, that the tax law has to change to reflect this.
Keep in mind the gas taxes (Both State and Federal) are supposed to pay for road maintenance. (I choose not to debate what the money actually goes to, that's not the point of this thread). As vehicles use less gas, the taxes have to come somewhere.

80 or so years ago (Yes, gas tax has existed since 1919 with Oregon being the first) I'm sure legislatures wrestled with how to do this, and the gas tax was the best idea they came up with.

I have concerns with the plans they have to calculate these new taxes.

• The GPS/CDMA thing. Give me a break, who's going to pay for it? Me? State government isn't. It would cost more to operate this kind of data collection than they would collect in taxes.
• Annual odometer check. This is workable. Most states have annual inspections. I just hate the lumpsum aspect of it. Gas tax is spread out as you fill up.
• Toll booth (80 mile per hour EZ Passes every 50 miles or so). Punishes people who drive highways, very easy to navigate around.
• Annual Fee. Workable, but still, it's a lumpsum over the year.
• GPS Tracker with annual upload. You'd have a GPS, but it would only checked at an annual inspection. I figure this would incite the most amount of tampering. (If it can't get a signal lock, how can it count the miles)

My biggest concerns:

• I live in New England. Traveling to two different states and back home inside of few hours isn't uncommon. Right now, depending on the state I fill up in, that state get's my tax money.
  • Long trips? I just got back from Niagara Falls, it's about 1000 miles there and back. Does my State get all of this money, including the 200 or so miles I drove in Canada?
• Existing Tax. Are they going to remove the existing Gas Tax, or are they going to double dip?
• Federal Gas Tax? Is the federal government going to get into this game? Report my Mileage to the IRS?

 

You make some good points.

I feel the Federal Government (EPA/DOE etc) needs to "step up to the plate" now and provide guidance on fuel taxes. Most of Virginia's hybrid fee is to recapture lost Federal gaso taxes. According to Virginia, as cars get more MPG, the Federal government stiffs them with reduced fuels tax rebates to the state. So VA took the "bull by the horn" and said we are going to hold Prius/hybrid owners responsible for the loss of Federal highway dollars.

I wish the Feds would say ixnay on this practice and give the states rebates based on gallons saved not gallons consumed.

On the one hand, the Feds are saying we need cars with better MPG, but on the other hand the Feds are rewarding the states with gaso guzzlers with bigger road tax rebates.

 

Too Late:
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