Clean Up Your Act, Or Else....

Some countries don't have subsidies for EV/PHEVs, and the power grid has a good renewable share. Portugal, as an example...
Is 70 Percent Renewable Power Possible? Portugal Just Did It For 3 Months | ThinkProgress

 

Yeah, I know about Portugal. I posted a thread in PriusChat

However, less than 100% clean grid means EVs do not improve the enviro situation at all.
Second, Portugal is probably not the target of Toyota's criticism. Somewhat in analogy to criticism of American's love affair with gas guzzlers not being a criticism leveled at me. It's hte other 98%

 

Toyota would probably have no problem shipping their FCV to Europe, regardless of where the hydrogen comes from.

 

I call BS. Most of the EV's are not available in most of the States in the US. This is a cost/profit decision and has nothing to do with the environment. California's mandates are the only reason they are offered "at a loss" now. Notice the EV Fit is only for lease? Car manufactures could care less about carbon, as was pointed out earlier. They continue to provide their "profitable" non-green vehicles to everyone everywhere. But what do I know?

 

Frodoz,
I think you are missing the point.

Toyota is saying that if countries are not pursuing a clean grid, the R&D asked of Toyota is not going to be profitable because the EV market will remain miniscule.

 

Just so I understand...electricity is what it is, regardless of how it is generated. How does that affect the minuscule market either way. Practicality, availability, cost, range anxiety, charging time, charging structure and resistance to change is what I thought was determining the market at present. Don't get me wrong, when I read about the EV Fit I was very interested, until I saw it was like the EV1 lease and only available on the west coast. I even went and checked out the Mitsubishi and Nissan (only ones in Texas), though not very impressed yet.

 

All those things are true, but government resolve to invest in long-term subsidy is paramount. Poor political will in cleaning up the grid is a reflection on the (poor) resolve to provide substantial long term subsidy to EVs.

Stop thinking of this from the standpoint of a private consumer and instead think as if you were in turn government or Toyota.

 

+1

Toyota has no issue with pursuing hydrogen gas FCV. Which, depending on source, can be more energy intensive to produce and transport than electricity. Because of hydrogen's limits with infrastructure, also has a much smaller market potential than BEVs.

Another tell that is BS, has Toyota stopped selling cars in areas of the world with lower emission standards than the US, EU, and Japan.

 

I see the point you are trying to make, however I still see the big picture in that EV's and other alternative vehicle are still a loss, not profit. The only reason Toyota (and others) takes the loss on them in California is because they loose the whole state if they don't. When big oil, or whoever owns the color Red decides it's time, it will happen. Not because of our wishes or concerns for the environment. It's all about money, power and control.

But like I said before, what do I know?

 

Toyota may have environmental preferences, but they are a business with stockholders.

They are saying to the EU:
"You say you are a partner for the long-term, that justifies a commitment from us to invest in EV ? Prove it by showing consistency in your public policy."

 

Respectfully, my opinion is different...and if it even mattered, all the stock holders want is a return (Profit). Gotta work tonight so off to bed for me.

 

So why are they not saying it to the US, where government policies are even worse?

 

CARB forces the matter.

 

Might have some merit if it held any water. Many EU countries already have cleen grids, others have policies. For example Germany, which is called out by name as (currently) being bad, has already committed policy to reduce CO2. In September 2010, the German Government launched the “Energy concept”, a comprehensive documentwhich describes the future energy policy strategies until 2050. According to this concept, GHGs shall decrease steadily from 40% in 2020 to 80-95% in 2050. The share of renewable energies in the primary energy supply will be 60% in 2050. In order to reach the aim of 50 % reduction in primary energy consumption within 2050 compared to 2008, energy efficiency will have to increase by 2 % per year.

So its not about government policy.. that is just a smokescreen to hide behind. Maybe more than just an excuse to not make EVs, maybe its the first step to reduce production in EU as well.


But hey, if Toyota wants to play as the market giant that ignores potential disruptive innovations and hide behind rhetoric, that is their choice. We can see their true colors.

 

not really true.. CARM does drive policy in California.
There are many other "CARB" states that have adopted the CARB car emissions standards (which, btw, don't impact Co2 production). However only some of those have policy/plans for CO2 reduction on the grid...

 

I agree....but EU needs to rapidly change their public policy away from diesels and towards EVs.
Diesel incentives may have made sense from the '73 oil crisis till about 2008. But now hybrids and EVs will reduce EU oil dependence more than diesels per Euro of incentive. If there were proper incentives, I am sure Toyota would have found a way to get the RAV4 EV over there.

 

I disagree. Given the same car (basically) when driving in EV the amount of energy used is much less than when driving with gas. It is on the order of 2-4x difference. Especially for short trips where all gas cars (including hybrid) get low mpg during the warmup time.

A major second point is where the emissions are produced. Even if it is a wash (EV vs gas), it is a big environmental improvement to get the smog out of dense cities.

Third, would you rather have all buses, trollies, trains and subways run on gas or electricity?

Mike

 

It is technically easier to control emissions at a power plant because the control equipment doesn't have to be packaged to fit on a small, mobile platform.

 

You are confusing policy with public relations.

Law, e..g, is the recent gutting of the solar subsidy in Germany
Law, e.g., is the German decision to close nuclear plants after the disaster in Japan and return to coal.

 

There is no such thing as a "clean grid".