Clean Up Your Act, Or Else....

You keep making this misstatement of fact. Leaf and EV Fit are perfectly viable for average 25 mile each way commuters. And cost effective, the EV Fit lease of $329 a month is a great deal.

 

"For (NOW) though, EVs are expensive limited use vehicles and not viable replacements for (EVERYONE)."

I see no misstatement iClaudius.

I would like an EV Fit, but can not have one. Actually the lease is now $259 and includes the charger. However there are only 1100 units available in the US between 2 states on the west coast and 6 in the northeast, and it is a lease only. Remeber EV1? In Texas only the Leaf and i-MiEV are available which are expensive (for what you get) requiring tax subsidies to sell. After driving and checking them out thoroughly, I determined the are "at best" very limited use vehicles without the confidence of Honda or Toyota backing (personal choice).

Change is coming, but until they offer something "to and for everyone" with the unrestricted driving offered in gas, diesel and hydrid vehicles, I will pass...and so will most everyone.

Honda joins electric car pricing battle with $259 lease on Fit EV - latimes.com

 

Sounds like a serial hybrid is in your comfort zone.
Please be aware your personal needs/desires do not translate to "most everyone". Sure, they will translate to some, maybe even a lot, but I doubt it.

No vehicle is made "to and for everyone". Can your car take you to the moon? No? Ok that is a limitation. It is a silly limitation as nobody expects or reasonably needs a car to take them to the moon.
Many people don't expect or need a car to drive them across the US. Some do, but certainly not a majority.

I also don't require a car that can take me from CA to NY in four hours. If people want that, they can take a plane.
Similarly, I very rarely need to go more than 200 miles. If I do, I can borrow a neighbors car.

Limitations of cars become even less meaningful in two car households.

 

Waiting for the Tesla hybrid:

 

"with the unrestricted driving offered in gas, diesel and hydrid vehicles"

This is what people need and want before they give up the affordable freedom they "already have". Otherwise you could not make enough EVs. They are "at this time" expensive limited use vehicles.

No one said anything about the moon, flying across the country or even 4-wheeling for that matter (or watercraft ).

If you go 200 miles in an EV without a charge you already have a Tesla, and I applaud you, but that means you have money most do not. Tesla is getting it done to make the changes viable and I hope rumor holds true with what is coming. They are not just offering some mini-box with a big battery and taking the loss per unit (or asking for tax moneys from everyone else) so they can sell cars in CA like most others.

I am not arguing anything with anyone, I am just stating the way it is. I would still lease an EV Fit this moment if I could, but I live in a Republican State. Funny how the only 8 States where it's available are all Democrat.

 

Good one.

 

Sure you are. You are stating your opinion of "the way it is" as fact. I disagree with that assumption, therefore the discussion

Discussion is a good thing. You get your assumptions challenged, get to reflect upon those assumptions and reform your opinion or strengthen it.

The reason I mention the moon is not that I expect anyone to need to go to the moon, but to illustrate that the limits you mention are applicable to a few, but meaningless to many.

The crux of the matter, IMO, is for how many vehicle owners is an EV range restriction relevant?

My position is that there is a large minority for whom the limitations of EVs are meaningless.
10s of thousands of early adopters have already bought and are happily using a wide variety of EVs. I expect this number to grow as people start experiencing and seeing these cars on the roads, just as people started buying hybrids in greater numbers as people started seeing them on the roads.

The LEAF and iMiev owners I know have given up no 'freedoms' that I know of that are relevant to them. Actually, I find your use of the term "freedom" odd, but decided to use it here simply for consistency sake. And with the ability to buy a Leaf for a net cost of 22k, or a iMiev for $12,500 (May-June special pricing) that is pretty darned affordable although not everyone can afford that either.

 

Thank you. I stand corrected, and prefer the word discussion. Opinion (IMO) is allowed then.

"The crux of the matter, IMO, is for how many vehicle owners is an EV range restriction relevant?"
Without looking up total car sales in the US to the percentage of those that are EVs, I'm guessing most. Money talks and BS walks.

"My position is that there is a large minority for whom the limitations of EVs are meaningless."
I agree more of this minority could utilize an EV if the confidence was there, I hope this changes in short order. But the infrastructure, product and convenience is not there for most.

"The LEAF and iMiev owners I know have given up no 'freedoms' that I know of that are relevant to them."
"Freedom" as I used it, refers to not having mileage limitations tied to a charging time and facility to charge at...restricted driving...and it is relevant to those than can not afford the lack thereof. Those owners you refer to are a part of the niche market or they would not drive them.

I can only speak for myself with regards to the Leaf and iMiev. There is no way I would buy either after my my hands on and reviews, especially the Mitsubishi. It's a piece of junk IMO. What Honda and Toyota is doing is good IMO. The Rav4 uses Tesla technology and support, the Fit is Leased, comes with a charger and some Insurance benefits, so when the technology and drive-ability is surpassed, you have to get the next "newest". Good for business and good for those customer who's logistics allow. What Tesla has and presumably will be doing is even better, provided they deliver the lower cost, higher mileage product as rumored.

If not too personal, do you have a Tesla?

 

Yes, we do. We actually wanted a LEAF, but our driving habits required more range than the Leaf gives. We actually very much enjoyed the Miev when we test drove it. The instant, smooth response, typical of the EV drivetrain, was a lot of fun in such a small vehicle. However, it is rather spartan.

The Rav4ev would have been perfect in terms of range. Alas, Toyota seems to be doing as little as they can on the EV front and they are not for sale in our state.

 

He should drive one first. Also test drive the Fiat 500 EV - they look like a blast to drive.

DBCassidy

 

Ah, Toyota Hybrid Nation 5 Million strong and increasing.

DBCassidy

 

Drove the Leaf and iMiev twice and poked is every crevice. Courtesy Nissan and Absolute Mitsubishi. Not happening here. You could not give me the iMiev, and the Leaf is still lacking for the price and range. They actually ranked the 2 lowest for range when compared in real world tests in LA. So the "Prius" hybrid is my comfort zone until something better is offered in Texas.

Congratulations on the Tesla Zythryn.

 

1. EV's such as LEAF and Fit are less than the $30K average car price.

2. EV's such as LEAF and Fit are viable replacements for average person who commutes 25 miles each way to work.

Statements of fact.

You might want to drop the "EVERYONE" red herring as NO CAR OR TRUCK is right for EVERYONE.

 

I agree -- the "everyone" argument is silly.

A charger at work dramatically increases the number of people who can live within the limits of these cars. And since I presume that a large fraction of the people considering these cars seriously work at companies more open to the idea of at-work charging, I find the argument that hordes of wannabee EV owners are just waiting on sidelines for a car with 300+ mile range very doubtful at best.

Certainly in my case, I think a car like the LEAF or the Fit EV are great. I haven't jumped because of my dirty grid.

 

I believe it is actually an issue of Carb verse non-Carb states.

Do the automakers get partial credits in California for sales in Carb adopted states?

 

As to the use of the word "everyone" for the purpose of the "discussion", replace it with "most people" or an "overwhelming majority" if this suits you. Either way this is semantics and you understand what I mean. EV's that are affordable still cost more that the ICE version even with Tax breaks, rebates or whatever pencil whips are being used. Even selling at cost or at loss to help people cross over, but more because California is a market manufactures need. I believe this is defined as blackmail or extortion.

Though some EVs could be viable replacements for the 50 mile work commute, and some employers do offer charging at work, then why isn't "everyone" buying them. The Leaf has sold 49,000 units ending Dec 2012 Globally, and the iMiev only 27,000 ending Dec 2012 Globally. So let's be generous and round that up to say 100,000 sold to date globally, people are just not doing it yet. You tell me why if you do not agree with me.

Dirty grid...wake up Dorothy, the grid as a whole is dirty in the US.

Pointing out the only states that will Lease an EV Fit are Democrat was a playful poke, but this is a Fact. It is also a Fact that these are CARB states. Why does that preclude the rest of us the right to Lease them. No car or truck is right for everyone, as is no type. I still wish I could Lease an EV Fit with the included charging system as it would work for me. But I can't so I'll get over it.

Want to help change my way of thinking, get one of your Dealers to Lease me one. Oh wait, you can't get them in Kansas and New Mexico either.

My opinion stands.

 

Ya know, even people who drive less than 25 miles to work have to occasionally go further for family, business, shopping, etc reasons. And not everyone lives in a situation where they drive to the train station and then commute into the city and have another vehicle for other trips. Reminds me of the years I owned a SUV just so I could drive a Porsche to work 80% of the time.

I drive a Hybrid because I want that 40+ MPG on a 300 mile trip maybe 2-3 times a year. More often, I go 50 miles to the grandkids. I can see a Volt as the town and shopping is 8-10 miles away but the car still has to deliver me to varied destinations not within the range of any under $30k EV that I know of. And, while I live in a very small town that happens to have one of the foremost hybrid battery refurbishers, I have yet to hear about any charging stations. And therein lies the rub for most people.

You need a very precise living environment for an EV. But even in pick-up'ville, hybrids are a practical alternative.

 

I'll try to thread a needle here. I agree with your point. I don't agree that it is the only point of importance. If a snapshot of the "here and now" economics of EV vehicles for the mass consumer favors the majority selection of ICE vehicles, then the facts are what they are.

If your goal is to shape the situation instead of being shaped by situation, then a very different point applies. Some of us have to make decisions to progress towards sustainable transportation (and sustainable everything else). This is not some liberal or treehugging extremist viewpoint. It is a very rational look at me using far more than I need and using it rather inefficiently. I want to change that. The move to an Hybrid, PHEV, or EV is very much a small, but not insignificant step in that direction. Voting with a wallet matters greatly. However, voting with my wallet is not justification for wasting money on technologies that don't work (H2 Car) or are not ready for prime time. EVs are ready, but not for the larger public. That comes next.

 

Operative phrase being when you find the argument. Haven't seen anyone making it.

That LEAF and Fit are viable cars for average person who commutes 25 miles each way to work is a fact. Convincing people to buy the viable EV is another issue.

 

Playful poke at what, or whom ? Since all the states that Honda leases its EV start with a letter earlier than 'x,' that is also Fact and about as informative as your observation.

I suggest you spend time poking your republican friends to support CARB in your state.

As for New Mexico and EVs, I know LEAF has been here for a while.