Clean Up Your Act, Or Else....

Explain yourself, toto.

 

Trust me I vote every time, which makes me a minority, claiming neither the Democrats or Republicans as my cause. I know how to laugh at myself, and I know how to laugh at others too.

"Certainly in my case, I think a car like the LEAF or the Fit EV are great. I haven't jumped because of my dirty grid."

These statements were yours suggesting you know what the grid is and how it is supplied, so it is nether not my place nor desire educate you any further. However, if "everyone" used your excuse not to buy an EV, "no one" would.

I have presented my views and opinions. We can agree, or agree to disagree. In the mean time I hope what Tesla and others are doing keeps us moving in a positive direction, whatever one's opinion of that is.

Electricity - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

Not completely true.
There are only a few hybrid diesel powertrains. I recall only two: Peugeot/Citroen Hy4 and Mercedes E300bluetechybrid. And that Hy4 still struggles to get good numbers average like BMW ED does.

Also EU gas taxes have shift many customers to diesel (less taxed) but CO2 emissions have not a clear benefit (diesel emits more CO2 than gasoline per liter).

 

Why ... with mass transit, many ride in EV's across the E.U. - and sometimes they do it at over 200mph ...



Japan can do it . . . . China has begun to do it . . . . and yet in the U.S. - when it comes to high speed clean electric transportation, we continue to dick around ... basing auto sales as 'doing good' when we sell more SUV's. You gotta laugh.
.

 

Volvo V60 also.

But Diesel gets more per gallon so you use less, 50% less energy overall than US and EU policy on emissions has required the Diesel's to get cleaner and cleaner.

EU policy has resulted in 50% greater energy efficiency than US. If US were as energy efficient as Europe, no $14T debt from 25 years of continuous oil war, no oil trade deficit of $400B per year, a cumulative $8T tax paid to oil dictatorships who fund oil terrorists, US would be meeting its 2050 climate goals, US goods would be more competitivce.

 

Cleaner does not means strictly less CO2, means PM and NOx...
US vs EU cars are much different, in weight, size and miles driven. Energy per passenger.mile should be a bit different but not 50%...

 

Finally, you say something correct. I know my local grid, and you do not. I'm still confused why you presumed to say that dirty grids do not exist.

 

Are you talking about diesels as alternatives to EVs as a way to reach the EU pollution and carbon goals/mandates ?

While I agree that a diesel car can be more efficient than petrol, they tend to pollute more in order to have lower carbon/km for one; and second, the difference is no where near 50%. That difference between the EU and the US is mostly explained by car size.

Moreover, a petrol hybrid trumps a diesel, while a diesel hybrid is on par or perhaps minimally lower carbon/km while costing a lot more and polluting more.

EVs do not have a strong case, but neither does diesel.

 

"I'm still confused why you presumed to say that dirty grids do not exist."
Sorry for the confusion but "the grid" is not clean. A re-read of that portion of that post explains why you thought that. Apologies an Edited.

 

I have already stated that my local grid is dirty.

If you have a point to make, the time is way past.

 

In some regions, where plug ins are doing well, using the grid is cleaner than a hybrid. Other regions have options at buying cleaner electric, or support the installation of clean home energy.

I doubt Honda gave a damn about a state's 'color' when it came to selecting release states. They had to do California. Perhaps they thought they could grab some more coin in those states. Not likely. What is likely, with Honda stating this is test program, the Northeast states are for cold weather testing. But you have to ask Honda.​

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Nissan and Tesla are the only automakers serious about EVs. The others are only doing it because of Ca. Some only sell there(rav4), some in other additional states(fit), and some nationwide(focus). You have to ask the manufacturer why they do it the way they do, but chances are it is just about money.​

 

Ahh ... back to this again.

The average carbon intensity of a grid before the EVs come online cannot be used to determine if an EV is cleaner than say, a Prius, because the important point is the marginal carbon intensity of the EV. You just have to understand that the EV is adding load to the grid.

'Support' for clean home energy is an oxymoron. Nothing prevents you from putting PV on your roof whether you drive an EV or not, except of course it's higher unsubsidized cost compared to e.g. coal. Yes, I use cost as people pay today out of pocket, not the true cost with externalities accounted for. Don't blame me for this bozo system.

 

And time of charging has a bearing on the impact that the added load has. Most plug in charging is being done at home, during the night.

In the case of PV and wind, you do need the support of the power company with grid tie in. Going off the grid isn't something many would be willing to do.

 

Absolutely. There is this notion that increased load at night will lead to more efficient coal plants; and I presume that can be true, but it is far from assured or obvious. What is generally true is that power plants want EV owners to charge at night rather than the day in order to take advantage of coal plants. CO might actually be an exception since they have surplus wind at night, but I have read reports that they stop buying wind and use coal instead.

Yes, I read your comment as saying that EVs 'support' clean energy.

 

Which is the point that it depends on the region. Nuclear could easily be the base load provider than coal in places. I'm against coal, but the older style plants have to keep running at night to keep the boilers hot to speak. Dirty electricity is better than dirty air with nothing to show for it.

I thought Texas had excess wind at night.

 

If I may extrapolate from the Prius, low load on the ICE is inefficient, but it is never more energy than a more efficient, higher load state. The implication is that higher loads will never provide an amount of free energy.

Beyond that general statement takes someone much more versed than me in thermodynamics, and knowledge of a specific power plant.

 

The low load is less efficient, but some of the fuel's energy is being put to work. Either in propulsion or charging the batteries. For steam driven, base load plants, the situation at night is more akin to a traditional car idling in a parking lot. Some of the energy might run the radio or the AC, but most of it is going to just spin the engine. With the majority of its work produced just going to waste.

Turning off these plants isn't possible because shut down and start up can be measured in hours. Plus the heating and cooling cycling can break things over time. Energy is being wasted just keeping these things warmed up for the next day. The steam needs to keep flowing regardless of the electric demand on the turbine. Power companies do their best to avoid it, but these plants could possibly be just burning coal to simply boil water.

 

This only matters to people who are short sighted. If a car reasonably lasts 10-15 even 20 years (the "average" age of cars on the road is 10-12 years), then getting payback in 6-8 or even 10 years still makes it a "win," fully considering initial costs, fuel, maintenance, depreciation, etc.

Mike

 

The car market has no "everyone" and no "average." Just as an example...
There are at least several categories of vehicle sizes:
small/large sedan
small/large SUV
Minivan
Hatchback
Pickup

Then are are difference price/niceness ranges:
basic transportation, nicer with a few features, luxury (and levels inbetween)

Then there are daily driving ranges: 10 miles or less one way commute, 25 miles, 50+ miles, and everything inbetween.

Now if you are a car maker it is difficult to figure out what type of vehicle, niceness and EV range is possible to build and people will buy. You can buy a large luxury sedan with 250 mile EV range, but you can't get a basic pickup with a 50 EV mile range. But all those things (and more) are available as gas only.

Mike

 

Lets all pull the plug and live in the dark! Wow, talk about being green and lowering your co2 foot print.

DBCassidy