Electric cars vs. plug-in hybrids: Which gets better economy?

Agreed - however, the battery use cost is not the OP. It's one car type, compared to the other. See below

If one gets cancer ... there's a 3%-5% chance that traditional treatments will be ineffective. Do you give up? or do you seek alternatives. The point being . . . if the sky is grey every morning where you live . . . you might want to consider moving a few miles to where it's occasionally blue sky in the morning. Frequently there are alternatives when life's roadblocks throw you. How one deals with them turns on how motivated you want to be.
Example: My boss asks me to do his job and find a relevant bit of info. I can't. He offers me one million to find it. Odds are ... I'm more likely find his relevant bit of info.
No plug at home? You look for one NEAR home or ... you look for one at work. No plug at work? You look for one NEAR work (then walk/bike the remainder). You look for one near a bus stop. You look for one at your EV's dealership (yes, dealers do let you charge ... many for free). Jeez - and for crying out loud ... that just off the top of my head. I'll bet you can think of a couple others if I gave you a million for each one you can come up with.

As to the OP ... (electric cars vs plug in hybrids which gets better economy)
If one is referring to best use of btu's ... then this is a slam dunk - if one is honest.
We like to say gas/oil fuel gets roughly 30kWh's of energy. But that's not actual energy use. If one factors what it takes to get the 30kwh's of energy, you have to easily knock a third of that off. You have to research where to drill ... then drill a bunch of dry holes to get good ones. Energy to build platforms over deep water. Energy to clean up spills (or you leave it there, which means you spend even more for) energy for medical/health issues from acquisition/use/toxicity. Energy to set up/support dictators in oil rich areas. Energy to defend against (what the CIA calls) 'blow-back' when oil rich citizens retaliate against foreigners causing terror in their countries (which the U.S. then re-brands as defending freedom from evil doers). Energy to deliver the roughly 50% ill gotten oil to our door steps .. the pumping ... the refining ... etc ad nausium. That's the day to day, best case scenario for carbon fuel.

Then there's fueling an EV on a day to day, best case scenario. PV on roof at home & at work. No terror. No degraded heath. Higher mileage per btu / kWh.

If one talks 'convenience' ? Again, what do you find convenient. You have to weigh different things ... not being able to go as far / re-fill fuel as fast (convenience of time), or buy a vehicle as cheep. Is it dollar wise cheep, if we don't tax oil extraction/delivery costs enough to pay for it today (as opposed to passing on a multi trillion dollar debt {large part military}, likely to collapse our economy in the very near future)? or is 'cheep' simply the price at the dealership. Is charging time inconvenient? No need to bother visiting far away relatives if they were in the twin towers. How do you measure time convenience.

Sure, there are a small % of folks who drive hundreds of miles every day, and/or have no possibility of being able to charge - anywhere. Some folks in the world still live in jungles & caves and can't even use a gas car. Do we really need to remind e/other which group is at issue? I think we're talking the majority. That means the only issue remaining turns of how one measures 'cost'. That's up to each person to decide. The answer (use some versus no carbon) is right/wrong turning on one's own varying understandings.

Perhaps. However, there are 1990's / Gen I rav4-ev's running around the landscape that've gone onto pass the 150k mile mark, still using their original traction pack, and that list continues to grow, year after year. Turning on how they were driven over the decades, many had to replace packs quicker. So the point remains. How many of the hidden costs do you hide, or include in the calculus . imo, the traction pack costing thousands (even factoring in the cost of its 100% recycling) still doesn't outweigh the hidden costs of carbon.
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Hill,
If you are pointing out that fossil fuels have subsidies and externalized costs I am 100% with you. It is actually why I am against EV subsidies -- people who take them are in a poor position to demand the removal from fossil fuels.

Ex-Pres Bush was a master of this ploy: give a penny to clean energy to buy them off, and give a buck to big oil.

 

Hill,

People do consider the *Total cost of ownership* of a vehicle more often than not when looking at a vehicle economic value wrt to asking price so maintenance cost of the battery is a legitimate economic factor.

The lack of a recharging infrastructure has been one of the major roadblocks for market acceptance of BEVs. There are no recharging stations or AC outlets at the parking garages or near the bus stops in the city where I work. Locally, there are only three public charging stations - all of them over 8 miles from where I work. The county where I live has more than three BEV - I'm not up to playing musical chairs... It's not about the money either - even if you promised me a million dollars to find a possible charging station - I couldn't take u up on the offer. With respect to getting solar panels on my roof or a BEV charging station at my home - I would have to go through a lengthly approval process from the home owners association. It's theoretically possible - maybe... I'm not trying to be difficult. I just want to say the challenges for BEV first adopters are real.


IMHO - the slam dunk for a BEV comes when a BEV is recharged using a solar panel array or/and wind turbines. No matter what you or I do - there will always be a demand for oil ( because its so darn useful) and so there will always be that risk of oil spill and pollution from fossil fuel will be with us for a very very long time. As for supporting dictators and genocidal idiots - there are many other things at play other than oil - long before oil - dictators and genocidal idiots have come and gone in the Age of Man. If it is not one reason it's another. The more immediate threat to the Western World's oil supply is not angry folks in oil producing countries but from (Wall Street) oil future contract speculation. Most of the extra money going for energy is not padding terrorism but financing Wall Street's paycheck.

The surviving first Generation of Rav4 EV are using NiMh battery packs which operate at a lower electrical load/capacity than the second generation of Rav4 EV (by Tesla) which are using Li-Ion liquid cooled battery
packs. The 1st gen Rav4 EV require almost zero maintenance - to the horror of the Dealership Service Centers.... Near- Zero revenue stream!!

It's like those Maytag Repair man commercials!

How's a dealership to survive?

 

The article brought up a painful, but a reality: without Prius in the marketplace, sales of hybrids / EV have been very dismal. One has to accept Toyotas' market share and overwhelming impact on the EV/ hybrid market.

DBCassidy

 

Volt owners belief is one thing. The general buying market don't understand what the Volt is. The confusion that this vehicle has works against increase in sales.

DBCassidy

 

Hybrids like Prius are a good gateway vehicles for the masses. My frustration, and my standards are high, is that there aren't many Really great hybrids, PHEV, BEV out there.

What makes a great car? Reasonably priced, high teens to high 20k or so. Interior and driving manners above reproach. Reasonably efficient and to the masses, that means about 30 MPG combined.

I think industry ought to 'keep playing the winners' by refining liftback Prius. They ought to at least have its interior match up to Civic (I don't think it does) and drive as well.

Increase trunk size and pass through for midsize trunked hybrids.

 

I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion, but I offer three others:

1. However much flows to terrorism, it is A LOT, and until it is zero it is TOO MUCH.
2. In economic well-being terms, money that stays in the country is a smarter choice than money that does not.
3. Money that flows to terrorism, in turn forces money to flow to combat terrorism. Just look at the US military budget.

People that say that cheap oil drives the US economy make me laugh. Cheap oil is *bankrupting* America.

 

Well, we, the US, don't have the oil. the 12 OPEC countries have 70% of the proven reserves. Ouch.

EIA's Energy in Brief: Who are the major players supplying the world oil market?

we are still the largest consumer of petroleum ...

EIA's Energy in Brief: How dependent are we on foreign oil?

a bright spot:

"Reliance on petroleum imports has declined

U.S. dependence on imported oil has declined since peaking in 2005. "

 

In the USA, 70% of the cost of gasoline is from the final cost of crude oil ( light or heavy)

The cost of crude oil in the Western Markets is based on oil future contract - whose initial value is use to financial crude oil production(exploration-extraction-initial distribution to refinery) but whose final value increases (at point of refinery stage) via the futures contract market ( oil speculator can be OPEC related like the Bank of Saudia Arabia but more often than not it is a non-OPEC related investor-venture capitalist like Berkshire Hathaway or the Bank of America) Given that the future contract market is open and free market - it is even open to individuals regardless of their political stripes or affiliations - the only thing that counts is money. However, because the oil futures market is an open and free market - it is also open to surveillance too. If anyone is trying to finance terrorism via futures market, they are probably being monitored by our intelligence agencies, too. Having a money trail to track terrorism is a great tool to observe the organizational behavior of terrorist groups - while this is a poor substitute for good Human Intelligence - it is one of the few tools the western world has. ( This reminds me of that saying keep your friends close, keep your enemies even closer)

Just weaning the public away from fossil fuel motor vehicles won't be enough to keep US dollars from importing foreign oil. We use tons of oil derived Jet fuel to keep our commercial jets and helicopters in the air - not to mention Jet Fuel keeps our military jets, helicopters, and tanks running. We also need diesel fuel to keep our trains, ships, trucks, and electrical generators going. Alas, the USA economy is like a WWI Dreadnought going as full speed - changing course takes a great deal of effort and time.

Given that there is also domestically spawned terrorism ( e.g. Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the e Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City ) I don't think controlling oil future contracts is going to end terrorism. I don't have a solution for domestic or foreign terrorism - but I do think we as a society need to provide more sustainable and viable options that are constructive (and not destructively) which empowers the individual to improve his/her lot in life. I'm of the inclination to avoiding using military force whenever possible only because I think beating up people to get your way is rather nasty and stressful thing to have as a habit.

However, when I look at the history of mankind as a whole - mankind seems to be constantly at war or in this on-going-act of oppressing each other.

With respect to the flow of money, it's not whether money-credit flow out of the country or not but whether there is enough money flowing to sustain the economy at all levels to keep employment and the gross national product index high enough so our trading is sustainable.

Free Trade means you can't force people to buy your stuff, hence, a seller/exporter needs to have stuff that people/customers/importers want to buy - that famous retail/ seller's saying comes to mind .... the customer is always right. Know your customers/buyers.

One of the reasons all modern economist advocate free trade is to avoid the economic forces which caused WWI and WWII - competing economic empires based on a close trading system (aka Mercantilism). Limiting exports and imports also closes off a country to modernization and puts its national security at risk. For example, in the 1500s China started restricting export/imports and contact with the outside world until by the 1800's when a more modern British Empire forced China back open via the Opium Wars. It took over 100 years for China regain its independence back after that.

Shutting out the world economically is equivalent to proverbial little Dutch boy plugging up the hole in the dike/dam with his finger - it can be done only temporarily, and when the dike fails the little Dutch boy will be swept away in the inevitable flood. If you see someone with his/her finger in the hole of a dike, then if you value your life you'll be running uphill to higher ground.

 

I wish I lived in a condo that a PIP or electric car could make a go of it. Both my fiancé and I work 10 miles away. But given the joint billing on electric, the likelyhood of charging spots are nill at this point. Add to what I have seen at public charging stations around the area - with non-EV cars parked - or even EV cars parked for a full day in spaces marked for 4 hours or less....

 

Mostly a good reply walter, but I have a little trouble with this little bit.

If you don't want liquid cooling, then you can always go Nissan Leaf. Most of those gen I rav 4's are no longer with us, and were only sold in california. For those of us in hot weather states, liquid conditioning is a selling point. Remember the new rav4 ev goes 0-60 in 7 seconds in sport mode, has longer range, versus a snails acceleration of 14 seconds to 60 on the old pack. Things are definitely "moving forward". I think if dealers would service the beasts in florida and texas the rav4 ev would sell in those states. As it is many are looking forward to the tesla S and X.

The Auto dealers association seems to not like bevs very much. That will be a tough fight. OPEC also doesn't like plug-ins. They are not for everyone, or even the majority, but they do have a strong place in the future car market.

 

I've measured the wall losses on a ChargePoint L2 (240v) station...it is about 9%. This was based on repeated charging and logging of each charge amount from the wall, ~140 miles of driving and logging of tht total kwh consumed on the EV ratio screen. All driving was in EV mode except when the HV mode was forced at ~124 miles for ~1 mile.

Probably true for the Leaf and its non-liquid cooled battery. But this is only one data point. In general, a pure EV will have an equal or longer life on most components, lower maintenance, etc.

In the PIP, I think, one could easily argue it will last longer than a regular Prius. Even if the battery gets very old and only charges 50% as much as when new it is still a better car in HV mode than a regular Prius with a smaller battery (which is also degraded).

Mike

 

I was just reading two threads here on PC of DIYers replacing a module in an HV Prius traction battery. The rebalancing act is quite a feat, and no trivial task. Doing the same for a PiP battery would take the patience of a saint, and I just cannot imagine anybody trying a bigger battery.

 

I incorrectly presumed that the monthly charge starts with a new car, but this is not the case. Currently Nissan lets owners start the program whenever they like, so perhaps owners can wait until their original battery starts to exhibit problems.

I'm feeling a lot better about the LEAF right now, although of course nothing prevents Nissan from changing future terms.*

*Actually, I love the LEAF; I just thought it was much more expensive than a Prius.

 

I just visited the Tesla Showroom in the Tyson Corner I Shopping Center (Tyson's Corner, VA) - It had two Tesla Sedan S on display - but very strangely you can't buy Tesla Sedan S there...

In Va., Tesla Motors has a showroom where it can’t make sales - The Washington Post

Life is so very strange...

 

I remember a friend telling me that she bought a Ford direct from the factory in MI. I wonder how that worked.

 

Can't that be said for an ICE as well? .... or a phev? If an ICE has lots of time on it (eg main bearing seal leaks bad) and you fix the worst issue, there's a good probability something else is right behind it that'll require $100's & $100's to remedy. Compare that to the worn/big EV traction pack. After 120k miles, with an (example) 80 mile (commuter) range reduced down to 65% of new - you're still commuting - as you still have appx 30% more range left in your old, big used pack than the Volt offers, even when it's pack is brand new. Many volt drivers boast of EV driving over 95% of the time. They have picked a car who's capability matches their commute. My commute is under 20 miles. Thus, the old - big - worn down traction pack can be reduced in range all the way down to its last 30% ( since I can charge at work ) and I could still commute to work. Thus the issue of minimum range you need comes into play. And remember lithium chemistry degradation is not linear. It flattens out substantially. In fact lithium traction pack technology is so new it still has yet to be determined how long that reduced capacity will last for those who only need to make a 10 or 20 or 30 mile commute.

 

The differences, Hill, are of probability and cost.
What will a LEAF battery cost new ? $10k ? (The new warranty offer likely changes this dramatically.)

What is the likelihood of a 100k mile Prius needing a $10k repair ?

 

Like a vulture, I'm waiting for used Leaf to show up at affordable prices. Get the shop manuals, add a trailer hitch for the towed, range extender, and voila!

The range extender only needs to provide about 15 hp; maximum efficiency; and low drag. For good measure, external combustion using anything from scrap wood, corn, non-road taxed liquid fuel, or natural gas . . . my portable, co-generator.

Operational scenario, the trailer, co-generator runs off of natural gas to provide house power, hot water, heating and AC. The Leaf plugs in at night for the next day's charge using a 'docking' parking place. If I need to go out of town, the co-generator disconnects from the house that goes on grid sustaining power. I fill up the alternate fuel source and drive on my long trip (I like Kingston charcoal as a fuel.)

When we get back, the generator reconnects to the house including the gas line and we go 'off grid' again.

Bob Wilson

 

Maybe you missed my point. And old PIP can still be used like a regular Prius pretty much indefinitely...and the ICE will not have as many miles on it as compared to the rest of the car.

Mike