Beware Buyers

make it a tall blonde one, preferably female.

 

Fussy! OK!

 

The sales man did try to sell me a Plug in. I said to him if he could show me good reasons why I should buy one without using rebates and incentives, I would buy it. He couldn't do it. The little savings that I get from running the car 10 miles on PiP battery could not justify the extra cost. I calculated that I would be saving about 40 cents per day since I can't charge the Prius at work. I only could charge it at home. At the end, I went with the standard Prius. Furthermore, the PiP battery adds another 330 pounds to the car. Since the max load of the Prius is around 890 pounds, that leave me only 560 max load. I average 50 miles a day on my Prius, therefore I would be carrying 330 pounds more than the standard Prius during most of my driving. I don't believe using rebates to justify my purchases. If the technology is that good, it should be able to sell itself. Rebates only good for one thing, in this case, more money for Toyota.

 

pip battery does not add 330 pounds. sadly, my friend, you are greatly misinformed on many counts.

 

Mike...based on your message, you're indirectly saying the technology could not sell itself. In order for Toyota to sell this technology to buyers, it is relying on rebates and free electricity (free at work). I also don't believe Prius drivers (standard or plug in) should get HOV stickers unless they have more than one passenger in the car. A plug in Prius with just the driver does not reduce traffic jams.

No matter how many mile a person drive a day, if he drives over 10 miles, his max savings from using the PiP battery is only about 40 cents per day. That's true for most people since most people can't charge their car at work. After 10 miles, he will be carrying an extra 330 pounds in his car. 330 pounds is the extra weigh of the PiP battery. I see that you type 14 miles for your range. Even at 14 miles, the savings is very very small. Over time, the PiP battery will degrade and people will not get the 10 miles that Toyota promised. In cold weather, the PiP battery won't yield the 10 miles range either.

 

If anyone wondered why Toyota delayed the national rollout, all they have to do is refer to this thread.

There's lot of misinformation to deal with first...

 

Toyota Prius - 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid Review - Car and Driver

I may not have ALL the information but I do know one thing, the Plug-in is not here to save me money. However, I have no problem with people buying the Plug-in just to be green. What I don't like is that when I was at the Toyota dealer, they tried to trick me into thinking that the Plug-in is going to save me a lot money by running on electricity. Luckily, I'm an engineer and my wife is an accountant, we did the math and knew right away that the sales man was B.S.-ing us. The savings that I would get from the PiP battery is so small, it's not worth the extra cost and the extra weigh (heavier battery) that I would have to carry around.

 

I am going to make a diagnosis of cranial-rectal inversion at this point. Either that, or you're just trolling.

I've never interacted online with someone who was SO misinformed, while at the same time being so certain of his "facts". Your posts remind me of some of the urban legends that are debunked on snopes.com.

The PiP battery weighs a little over 100lbs. more than the standard battery. This is more than offset by the increased regen. 10 miles is the absolute minimum distance most people achieve on wall electricity, under suboptimal conditions (Winter).

If you weighed the pros and cons, and decided the PiP is not for you, and you would rather let the government keep all your tax money this year, then more power to you. Do you own a house? If so, I'll expect you to stop deducting the interest from your taxes in the future. You should be ashamed! </sarcasm>

 

Toyota Prius - 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid Review - Car and Driver

Before buying a Prius Plug-in, check the following article out. If you're buying the Plug-in to save money, you could be disappointed once you find out how little you'll be saving. If you're buying the Plug-in to be green, then you should check how your electricity is generated.

2012&nbsp;Toyota&nbsp;Prius Plug-in Review By Joe Wiesenfelder

 

That has *never* been a purpose for hybrids. It has been coming close to breaking even with the benefit of cleaner emissions and consuming less non-renewable resources.

 

The difference in curb weights between a standard Prius and the PiP is 123 pounds, with the standard @ 3042 vs 3165 for the PiP. (source- Toyota specs) The difference in battery weight is approx. 59 pounds, with the PiP @ 176 pounds and the standard @ 117 pounds. The Car and Driver article clearly states that the car tested was a pre-production model, and the 330 pounds mentioned was the battery pack and ancillary hardware.
The guy will not be convinced; he drives 50 miles per day, so that is what "most people" drive. Rebut or question his statements and he ignores you, instead repeating his own misinformation. But because he is an "engineer" and his wife is an "accountant" we are expected to accept his statements as fact.
Someone on the forum has a great quote in his signature- something to the effect of "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."

 

I think that you should apply the same scrutiny to your purchase of a Prius compared to a Corolla or a Yaris. Did you save money?

In CA there are at least two clear purposes of HOV lanes. Reduce congestion and reduce emissions.

Why do you think you can only charge once per day? On average I'm getting almost 500 EV miles per month. If my commute was more than about 6 miles each way I could be getting about 700. As it is I've been to the gas station twice since Halloween. With gas at almost $4/gal in CA I'd be spending about $40/mon for gas in my older 2010. Instead I'm using about 100 kwh for those miles...mostly free, but it would be a cost of $10...for a savings of $30/mon. Make that about $300 per year...plus I get much better mpg when using gas because I've eliminated the mpg-killing short trips which you should be very familiar with.

Mike

 

There is nothing wrong with not having all the information. The problem arises when you not only don't have the information but you pretend you do and provide incorrect information.
Please ask, rather than guess and then put forth your guesses as fact.

If money is the only measure you are using in your buying decision, you should buy an old GEO Metro.

 

John...I'm beginning to realize that. However, when I was at the Toyota dealer last year, the sales man tried to trick me into thinking that the Plug-in is going to save me a lot of money. Also, he didn't offer to tell me about the negative aspect of the Plug-in. Even though I was wrong about the extra weigh being 330lbs. It is still about a 100lbs heavier than the standard Prius. The bottom line is that Toyota is over-hyping the Plug-in. Like I said earlier, I have no problem with someone who buy it just to be "green". But now I found out that it isn't that green unless the electricity you use to charge the car is coming from renewable energy.

I went by the information I got from the internet from various web sites, not just one. Even though I was wrong about the 330 lbs, I am still right about the Plug-in being heavier. Instead of looking at what I'm trying to say, you seem to like focus on my numbers being wrong. So are you saying I'm wrong about saving only about 40 cents a day if I only could charge the car once per day at home? Regardless whether the battery is 330 lbs or 100 lbs, my savings isn't going to shoot up by a wide margin from 40 cents. I told the sales man that if he could show me good numbers in savings, I would buy the plug in. He couldn't do it without using rebates and other incentives from the government.

There are a few facts I don't need to ask.

- gas is $4/gallon
- PPI battery yields about 10 -12 miles
- PPI battery will degrade over time and yields less miles in winter time
- PPI cost a lot of money to buy unless you add rebates and incentive
- PPI battery will take up more space in the trunk
- PPI battery will make the car heavier even though I was wrong about the 330 lbs, it's still heavier

Just using these facts, I knew that I'm not going to save money and it's not worth it for me to buy it. However, the sales man at the dealer was trying to trick me into thinking that the PPI will save me a lot of money. It sounded good at first but after I sat down and do the math, PPI isn't a good deal at all.

 

You unknowingly fell into a common greenwashing trap. The use of outdated information happens on a regular basis. That's why we pounce quickly to stop the spread of it.

Taking a particular experience you had to make a generalization about the product itself isn't in good form. At best, it's a warning to other potential customers. There are salespeople who will intentionally mislead and some who are poorly informed. Don't ever take their advice at face value. Always confirm with another source.

 

The facts stated so far are incomplete... yet another common greenwashing trap. You're finding out it's remarkably easy to jump to an incorrect conclusion.

Even though the vehicle is heavier, it still delivers higher MPG using the Lithium-Ion battery than the regular model does with the NiMH. So, the weight difference is basically a wash.

The range varies far more than you have accounted for (or are aware of) and efficiency is still far about the regular model, even in the dead of winter.

As for the trunk space comment, that is quite vague. The cargo area for the transport of large items is exactly the same as the regular model. The only difference is there isn't a tray underneath that area. There is however a large bin still, and it is much deeper than what the regular model offers. This too could be considered a wash.

I suggest searching through the wealth of real-world data available here on the forum. You'll see overall (annual cycle) MPG is considerably higher than the regular model. Things like the "short-trip penalty" don't exist for plug-in. That's a factor not listed above.

 

Since there are no charging stations at my work, I only could charge at home. That's why I said most people could only charge their cars at home if they had a PPI. The general formula for cost calculation, gas cost twice as much as electricity when used as fuel for the car. Since PPI battery is rated at 10 - 12 miles, my savings is 80 cents but it would cost 40 cents to charge the battery. My final savings is only 40 cents and for most people, that is 40 cents savings per day since they only could charge once per day. If you multiply 40 cents by 365 days, my annual savings is only about $150. I don't do a lot of short trips so I don't worry about them.

 

I can understand being philosophically opposed to offering tax credits. However, it makes no sense at all to ignore dealer and other incentives.

Cost savings: before purchasing I ran the numbers and estimated that I would save ~$200 per year. It turns out that for some reason my PIP is getting much better mileage than I expected I might save as much as $300 per year.

In my case sense I am willing to claim my tax credit the PIP does offer savings compared to a std. Prius.

The advantage of combining solar & solar driving:
We purchased solar panels ~3 years ago. We calculated a 11 to 12 ROI. Each year we have excess production. We are now using the excess solar to charge our PIP. At this point it is costing us ~2 cents/mile to run our PIP.
One final point. We own two vehicles. One vehicle is designated as the utility vehicle. We use it for our daily commute and as a kayak hauler. The second vehicle is our cruising/road trip car. Based on our past behavior cost will be a secondary consideration when we replace our cruiser. There is a good chance we will purchase another PHEV (Tesla, Volvo). My primary goal in purchasing these technologies is to benefit society. As an early adopter I will pay more. However, as the market share of EVs and PHEVs grows society in general benefits from an increase in energy security and a reduction in emissions.

PIP owners = good citizens

 

You seem to imply it isn't that green unless the electricity only comes from renewable sources.
That is incorrect. The PiP is greener if your electricity is from renewables (including nuclear) as well as natural gas. Coal is the big culprit, but coal is providing less and less of a percentage of our electricity every year.

When you use numbers to support a position, and those numbers are wrong, the conclusion based upon those numbers become suspect.
As John already mentioned, the PiP gets better mpg ratings even with the higher weight.

Again, why buy a Prius, an old GEO Metro would cost you less.

You probably should have asked questions about these facts as most are either unimportant or not true.

As for the dealer, the dealers make their money by selling you a product. Some use 'bad' tactics, some even exaggerate or outright lie. And I would offer that Toyota dealers are better than most.
If you don't like it, I would suggest you sign the White House petition at allow Tesla Motors to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states. | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

Poorly worded, but it basically is trying to break the dealer association's lock on allowing manufacturers to sell direct.