Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

What about GM(Chevy)'s current line up isn't balanced? You brought up the number of trucks GM sold. I was merely pointing out that it was people that choose to buy that many, and that Toyota would be quite happy if they were as unbalanced in truck sales.

It was, what, 5 years before Toyota offered a hybrid besides the Prius. The Caddy ELR comes out soon. It isn't as big a leap technologically as the RX hybrid was, but we only got the HiHy because they shared a platform. I remember talk of Toyota bringing hybrids to their entire line up in 2005. How long did it take them to release a wagon of the Prius?

Without public demand, and the Volt coming to market, Toyota would have dragged their feet on the PPI. In fact, they don't seem to want to have to do anything with a plug. What, Nissan took the bold and risky move with the Leaf, so now EVs and plug ins are sour grapes to Toyota? You said a longer range PHV would fit within the Prius family. Any rumors or concepts on that front from Toyota? Most of their future news I've heard concerned their FCV. Which is plugless.

I understand what you are saying, but we are in the 'Prius, hybrid, EV, and alt-fuel news' forum.

It's a Prius site that has always been inclusive of others. Jerks from other camps have come posting trash. It wasn't tolerated, but I don't see that going on here.

 

Lack of choice. It's one extreme or another. Business diversity...

 

For what it's worth, GM manufactured at least 47,574 model year 2013 Volts (and Amperas) since that is the highest 2013 VIN sequence number registered at voltstats.net.

 

My sister-in-law wanted to get a bigger car because the baby seat they bought is bulky for the car. I asked them why not get another baby seat that fits better for the current car.

 

Maybe she just didn't like her car?

 

Toyota made compromises that will put off a lot of "normal" consumers. You keep talking about how Toyota created this excellent design yet you ignore the simple fact that the car feels cheap and doesn't allow you to use one of the most fun benefits of EV which is instant torque take offs. Hell most reviewers and new owners have a hard time keeping the ICE off. Why spend the extra money for a plug in if you have to baby the car to utilize it to its fullest?

There is plenty of smart technology in the PIP but it is far from polished and the few shortcomings it has are large and glaringly obvious to most consumers.

 

Are you saying that if GM had a Prius-esque hybrid available now, those people won't have bought a truck?

GM does have a diverse line up, and their small, fuel efficient cars (Spark, Sonic, Cruze) are doing well.

They are a business. People want trucks. They make trucks. If they didn't, the people would just go to Ford or Dodge. They're not having a hybrid that makes you happy is making people buy trucks. They are improving the fuel efficiency of their trucks. More smaller trucks would be nice, but CAFE regulations might actually kill them.

 

I used the same fuel ratio to compare the efficiency to point out that more EV range degrades fuel efficiency of both gas and electric. I could have used C-Max Energi to make the same point as well.

To put it in a different way, if another Volt or Energi owner has the same EV ratio as my PiP, he'll use more electricity and gasoline per mile. The further the commute, the less bang for the buck a plugin become. That's due to the limitation of the Lithium battery.

If I have a Volt instead of PiP, I'll surely get higher EV ratio but would take a hit in efficiency of both fuels, especially on my upcoming 1,000+ miles 4th of July freedom drive to Canada. I'll be giving up many things, including some needs. Higher EV ratio does not mean better.

 

The explanation is in the design goal.

PiP was intended to provide EV driving power for city dwellers and the range they picked reflects that. The other design goal includes keeping the same interior space and retain 50 MPG gas mileage. The goal was to be optimal for every driving condtions.

Your commute is mostly highway so this is no surprise from your perspective. I wish you knew that before you bought the PiP though.

I also wish Toyota marketed PiP better. They screwed up and most reviewers have no clue about it's benefits and end up comparing it to Volt.

I believe the way I use PiP is optimal. I use the EV miles for city driving (also some highway below 60 mph) and gas engine for longer trips. 132 MPGe on EV miles and 54 MPG on gas miles are the end result.

 

Among the plug in advocates, I think it also seems half-hearted on Toyota's part. They've been waiting 7+ years for a factory plug in Prius, and when it arrives, while good at what it does, isn't much better(reducing gas use) than what the after market crowd has done since the gen2.

Part of the PPI's lack luster sales might be that the people that wanted it got tired of waiting and moved on. Some to the Volt, but I think most of those early pluggers went full electric.

If a Volt owner had your EV ratio, he'd have a nearly 50mile commute. He uses more electricity on the commute with the Volt, but a PPI on that commute will use more gas.

Pure efficiency does not sell cars. Otherwise hybrids would have been selling higher than the 3 to 4 percent they for awhile. Most people that look at the PPI walk out with a Prius or move on. It's a Prius that gives up the spare for a larger battery. It can reduce their gas use farther, but it needs more than that to get the average person spend thousands more for it.

I don't think Toyota even wants to sell the PPI, or things with plugs in general. Eyeballing the numbers, the PPI should outsell the Volt when nationwide. They've delayed that roll out.

 

The glass half full way to look at the 3-4% is:

Many people want/need other car sizes and shapes...like pickups, vans, big SUVs. It could be because they need it for work, to carry lots of people and stuff ro for other reasons. Yes, lots of people have no good reason or reasons that only seem good to them. The remaining portion of the market for a small car, hatchback style is probably around 15-30%. Some people always buy from certain companies or only American. Getting 3-4% of the remaining people is actually fairly significant.

The few hybrids that sell in the other segments are mostly hybrid version of existing models. Mostly, the extra cost vs the benefits for these isn't worth it. Clearly these buyers were looking at a car segment first, efficiency second, third or not all.

Mike

 

She likes it and still has that car. It amazes me the kind of things that people come up that make them unhappy about their cars.

 

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There are chemical and physics laws that limit what EVs can accomplish and PHEVs are interesting but still look poorly done:

• battery chemistry - until air-reactant batteries become common and reliable, it doesn't work for me. Battery chemistry works by having a balanced quantity of oxidizing and reducing reactants which combine releasing a current flow. They then carry the combined reactants, 'dead weight' and volume, around until charging can separate them again.
• heat engines - a thermal engine only carries fuel and combines it with oxygen from the air to exhaust CO{2} and H{2}O which are dumped overboard. The engine has a distinct advantage and our Prius engine achieves thermodynamic efficiencies approaching power plants, the ones that generate electricity for batteries.

I am OK with an EV with urban range, 50 miles, and the option of towing or having a heat engine added for long distance trips, Nashville and back. The average power needed to sustain highway speeds are fairly modest so a highly-tuned, fixed output, thermal engine works for me:

A chain-saw size and weight engine has enough power so just add a fuel tank and controls to integrate it and I'm a happy camper. But that is not what is on the market and I'm not seeing anyone else advocating what I want.​

Now if the EVs and PHEVs start taking folks out of F150s and Silverados I would be completely happy but that is not what I'm seeing in PriusChat. Instead, I'm seeing advocates pestering the 'house of Prius' owners and too often use 'gray' arguments, focused on extremely narrow 'goals.' For example, 'did not burn any gasoline'.

Except for the Tesla, I'm not seeing any of the EVs and very few PHEVs making a serious stab at the gasser community. That is where we need to see progress. But I'm not convienced the electric-hybrid is the way to go.

For F150, Sliverado, SUV, and utility trucks, hydraulic hybrids are very attractive. They have the power density needed to handle acceleration and efficiency to handle hydraulic, regenerative braking. But EVs and PHEVs are not even headed that direction.

Bob Wilson

 

There is no need to pick a specific commute length to make one look good over another. Everyone's commute is different so, use electricity and gas usage PER MILE to compare.

If your only goal is to reduce gasoline usage, the best way is to shorten the commute distance. When the commute is shorter, not only you use less fuel(s), a plugin with less compromises (PiP) and higher efficiency becomes a better choice.

Maybe not but Prius sells. Prius represents low emission achieved by the mean of efficiency enabled by affordable high tech and most importantly, has to be practical.

 

Bob,
What do you think of the approach that Via Motors is taking?

VIA Motors

 

But the Prius is not the Prius Plug-In so what is wrong with the Prius Plug-In? Not practical ?

 

Dennis, while I agree with most of your points it seems you get too caught up in MPGe. If electric costs less per mile then it is more cost effective (and pleasing) to drive as far as one can on electric. No matter how I calculate it, the Volt has a lower cost per mile than my PIPA. I don't feel like I compromised anything beyond a little utility and a loss of LED headlights. I gained quite a bit in return. Baring any very long gas only trips I think I'll be able to do 2000+ mile tanks despite the smaller gas tank. It's fun to play around with numbers to determine efficiency but at the end of the day I'll spend less to fuel a Volt than a PIP given my commute. Then again, with the money I lost I could buy a lot of fuel for the PIP. I look at it as buying happiness. lol

With your commute the PIP makes perfect sense assuming you don't care about the other things that drove me to the Volt. You made the right choice.

 

Any speculation as to the resale value of a plug-in with a big battery in 5 or 6 years?

 

I'm not trying to make one look better over another. You said if another plug in was limited to the same @80/20 EV/gas spilt as the PPI that they would be less efficient in their fuel use. I brought up commute length because your point has no bearing in the real world. In order to get gas use on a daily basis, a Volt owner has to commute above the 38 mile EV range. Beneath that range, and the gas efficiency becomes less of a concern. The difference in electric efficiency may not make enough of a difference for them to notice on the electric bill.

If the Volt owner did have the 50 mile commute, they will be filling the tank every 27 days. With premium at $3.78 a gallon, so $34 a fill. In PPI, the fill up would every 15 days for $39 (regular $3.58 and any rounding in the PPI's favor). That's what the average person will look at in comparing the two. How often they have go to the gas station, and how much it will cost.

We both know that there is a host of variables that can keep moving closer possible.

On a personal note, I wouldn't buy a PPI because of the flying bridge.

Not everyone wants to sit in practical everyday.

 

They're still hybrids. So I say they should hold their value.

The PPI and Volt both have a decent buffer reserve capacity in their battery packs. So I wouldn't worry about the pack. Ford has a less conservative approach in regards to a buffer, but maybe that's fine with the chemistry.