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Getting a Prius has been a real eye opener

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by Bob G IA, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    Getting a Prius has been a real eye opener for me. I never really comprehended, until now, how the torque converter in a typical automatic transmission is the real heart of the problem with typical automobiles. Yes, it allows the transmission to shift, but at what cost? The second problem is mechanical brakes. And again, yes, mechanical friction brakes are still needed, but there are other forms of reusable energy that momentum can be converted into rather than wasted heat.
    The Synergy Drive makes so much more sense to allow the ICE to operate as needed in an efficient way and to allow momentum to be converted into electricity. Personally I think instead of complaining about EV and Hybrid cars being too quiet how about instead a ban on production of any highway driven vehicle that allows slippage to occur like the torque converter does. This would force manufacturers to abandon technology from the 1940s and make technology like the Synergy Drive become the mainstay.
    The electrically driven accessories like the A/C and power steering are the icing on the cake. With the typical belt driven devices the RPMs are never optimal for the device. By driving them electrically they can operate as a separate sub-systems with optimized RPMs based upon conditions.
    For me the next logic step is the plug-in hybrid. I do have one condition. I live in an area where there are an increasing number of wind turbine being installed. I however become frustrated when I see the turbines turned "off" when there is plenty of wind. They are "off" because of challenges with balancing the grid. My idea would be to work out some sort of deal so alternative power generation and plug in vehicles charging can work together. This would help avoid the "opportunity' to use alternative power being wasted. We need to keep the turbines turning and have the power consumed (or stored for consumption) by Plug in vehicles. This could be a signal that comes to your home charging station from the grid that says something like, "your local turbine will need to turn off soon, please charge your EV or home storage now." This power would be offered at a discount rate to promote people using the power at the optimal time to help regulation of the grid and keeping the wind turbines running as much as possible. The net result would a much higher number of miles being traveled with truly pollution free propulsion without dependence on anything but the alternative electricity source, maintenance of the source, and the electrical infrastructure.
    I am looking forward to what the future and the Prius Generation 4 brings us.
     
    Data Daedalus, ftl and john1701a like this.
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    me too!:)
     
  3. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Yeah, Prius is the darling hybrid.

    At least things are underway, but midsize sedan hybrids have a 'little' problem: trunk reduced by battery. It's worse with the plug-in hybrid sedans where you're lucky to get 2 suitcases in a Fusion Energi or Accord plug in. Even the 2nd best selling hybrid, Camry Hybrid offers only one rear seat fold down with a very small pass through. So, as it has been, problem is ....

    "It's the battery, man" ....

    All-Electric Cars Need Battery Breakthrough

    Google
     
    Bob G IA likes this.
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    seems to me, until the battery breakthrough, we need a midsize completely redesigned from the ground up, to find a place below the floor for whatever size battery is needed. which is what i hope they do with the next pip. but perhaps that is too expensive for the amount of cars they feel they can sell?
     
  5. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    The lower and more centered the weight is the better.:cool:
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    seems to me v___ has the right idea, (can't believe i said that:eek: ) or am i missing something?
     
  7. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    Higher energy density in a portable form is something man has tried to achieve ever since climbed on the back of other animals such as horses or gathered wood for the first fire.
    Humans can only process and produce a limited amount of energy. But we had learned to harness other sources of energy to do more that we otherwise would be able to do. Man has found and harnessed many sources of energy ranging from the simplest such as sugar all the way up to the nuclear bomb.
    The challenge is making the energy source portable and to be able to efficiently convert it from one form to another in a portable setup.
    For example we could eliminate electric regenerative braking by converting the momentum of the car to mechanical energy stored in a large flywheel. The problems with a flywheel are they add weight and the centrifugal force they create could make the car handle very strangely when the flywheel is spinning. Another option would be to carry along a tank of water and use electrolysis to convert the water to hydrogen for a regenerative brake and then burn the hydrogen in the ICE. The problem with that is the electrolysis setup, including water and hydrogen tank, would take up space and add weight.

    So for now, our none hydrocarbon powered vehicles are using the second most dense portable power source we have, batteries.

    GM, Chevron and CARB killed the NiMH EV once, will do so again
     
  8. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    Actually I did some research. Do you know why plug-in hybrids don't use NiMH batteries? Because Chevron won't let anyone because GM sold their NiMH patents to Chevron!

    I found this in regards to the RAV4-EVs.

    Toyota RAV4 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chevron Patent incumbrance[edit]

    Main article: Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries
    Whether or not Toyota wanted to continue production, it was unlikely to be able to do so because the EV-95 battery was no longer available. Chevron had inherited control of the worldwide patent rights for the NiMH EV-95 battery when it merged with Texaco, which had purchased them from General Motors. Chevron's unit won a US$30,000,000 settlement from Toyota and Panasonic, and the production line for the large NiMH batteries was closed down and dismantled. This case was settled in the ICC International Court of Arbitration, and not publicised due to a gag order placed on all parties involved.[11][12] Only smaller NiMH batteries, incapable of powering an electric vehicle or plugging in, were allowed by Chevron-Texaco.[13

    Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After reading the information at these sites its obvious why hybrid and EV vehicles have been slow to take off, big oil doesn't want it to happen and GM helped them. Sorry, there won't be a Volt or any other GM hybrid or EV vehicle sitting in my driveway anytime soon....
     
  9. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    ^^^
    Well, FWIW, no currently/recently sold EVs use NiMH now anyway. They've all gone w/some variant of li-ion (there are many, see Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University). '12+ Rav4 EV (aka "poor man's Tesla") is li-ion. It is VERY different than the old Rav4 EV that's referenced. I have seen some of the latter running around before but haven't seen one in awhile.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm not sure they would have gone the nimh route, but if they were forced into lion, so be it. everything about them is better except longevity which still has to be proved out afaik. this doesn't prevent them from making a midsize car with a large battery tray on the bottom and building up from there. it's still a matter of economics. it's a huge investment for a company and if they think they will only sell a few thousand a month, may not be worth it to them.
     
  11. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    There are no currently/recently sold EVs use NiMH batteries because Chevron won't allow it.....
    Big oil has caused a 10 year delay and forced manufacturers to use something other than NiMH for EV vehicles. The Toyota Rav4 could go 100 to 120 miles with NiMH batteries back in 2003. That's longer range than the Nissan Leaf.
    To be honest Toyota may be being conservative about the range of their plug in hybrids in anticipation of big oil coming in and some how blocking and suing them again.
     
  12. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    I found a couple of interesting links

    "Toyota is a founding partner in the Hydrogen Highway Initiative, an advanced infrastructure that prepares our roadways for the next generation of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, with less impact on the environment."

    Toyota Technology

    Hydrogen Highway Initiative

    Should be interesting to see where this goes.
     
  13. g4_power

    g4_power Junior Member

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    Bob G - I like your idea and I believe that it could work but it sounds complicated and when something is complicated, it's costly at least initially and no one would really want to invest in it. I think they should use the excess electricity to make hydrogen and then use the hydrogen as fuel later. With commercial buildings in the summer time, they could use the excess electricity to make ice. The ice could be then use later to help cool the building.
     
  14. hlunde

    hlunde Member

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    Conventional automatic transmission have generally featured high-gear lock-up since the 1980's. And, at least for now, dual-clutch systems are becoming the mainstay for ICE-only powered vehicles.

    I am not being at all critical about the Prius' excellent drive systems, I just think that we need all approaches to improving fuel economy, especially those approaches that might be acceptable to those who use SUV's and pickup trucks as their daily driver. And dual-clutch has a role here.
     
  15. Bob G IA

    Bob G IA Member

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    The sad part about the high gear lock up is it only provides benefit when at highway speeds under light load. When climbing hills or in city traffic the torque converter lock up is the first thing to be disengaged. So when you really need to put the power to the wheels the torque converter is slipping just like cars from the 50's did.

    I regards to the dual clutch system I have heard in some vehicles there wasn't any improvement in gas mileage. I don't have the particulars at the moment but I am interested in hearing more about it, both the good and bad.