Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

I wish them luck. But I still think a hydraulic-hybrid makes more sense on cost and performance:

source: NRG Dynamix Hydraulic Hybrid – John's Journal on Autoline

Here is another report:

John Macelroy (sp?) of AutoLine Daily reported seeing some interesting work with hydraulic hybrids on a recent trip to Europe:

Source: PSA Plans Low-Cost, Efficient Hydraulic Hybrid for 2016 | Vehicles & Technology content from WardsAuto

As for VIA, Bob Lutz is the same guy who wants to put Corvette engines in the Fisker. Now if he'd proposed putting VIA technology in the Fisker, I could believe he actually supports the technology. Let's just say I'm skeptical of his commitment. VIA may be OK but Lutz lost my confidence a long, long time ago. He was Mr. GM when in the 2000s GM was working itself out of business.

Bob Wilson

 

Probably better than a plug-in with a small battery.

 

I'm troubled by that train of thought. Yes ... some people 'want' trucks. Some people want SUV's. It'd be interesting to discover what % actually "need" trucks ... as opposed to those that buy simply trucks because they bought into some wrong logic .... either because it was a bargain, or because they may need one a couple times a year, or because it's 'macho' or what ever.

With the advent of fracking, much of the U.S. has falsely been let to believe (by the oil industry) that "happy days are here again" ... that so much carbon fuel has been released in the Montana/Dakota/Canadian region that we'll actually be exporters again. Stupid me ... I bought into the crock. should have realized who it was that was spewing the nembers. Turns out that more reliable sources claim otherwise. In fact:

Shale gas won't stop peak oil, but could create an economic crisis

Bottom line, right about the time that our economy attempts to come back to its pre 2005 - 2007 (fuel) production levels - we'll be sputtering out of our new found (supposely endless stream of) carbon wealth. And yet ... we sit here and go merrily along our way, with the auto industry telling us how much we really need their land barges (which by no small coincidence, enables one of its largest profit margins). Good luck with that policy.

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Don't mean to crash on this tread but it seems this site is creating a huge conflict. I mean even on a priuschat (including admins) seeing them trade there car in for a volt or tesla. Is the prius slowly dying?

 

Knowing your audience is vital.

Seeing some enthusiasts or supporters switch to something with larger battery & motor doesn't represent anything with respect to ordinary consumers. That's why there are different grades vehicle.

It's also why claims of "shortcomings" don't actually make any difference. If you're simply looking for an improvement over the regular Prius, the PHV undeniably delivers. It's not attempting to be an EV, which is why direct comparisons to a plug-in like Volt don't make any sense... they clearly aren't intended to appeal to the same audience.

BTW, what speed is the traditional vehicle dying?

 

"maturing" might be a better description.

 

Not that we can tell from the monthly sales figures. The sales data suggests the legacy, Honda hybrids appear to be in intensive care.

I think it is more fair to reflect that people change as technology makes new products available. For example, we have two Prius:

• 1.5L, 2003, compact sedan - solid 52 MPG, commuting car, today it would be a 'Prius c'
• 1.8L, 2010, hatchback - does everything the 2003 does but 5 mph faster and in colder weather

Just two years ago, there were two companies selling plug-in modification kits for the 1.5L, Prius hatchback. They have all but gone out of business.

Now I could be tempted to replace the 2003 Prius with a used Leaf IF it looks like a range-extender engine could be rigged up. But today that is not an option and I have another project that is more appealing.

Bob Wilson

 

I don't think the Prius line is dying. I agree with an earlier comment about how for quite some time the Prius was pretty much the only real game in town. That is changing so of course some owners who were not completely satisfied with Prius or who just feel the need for something new will likely move on to another vehicle. Most of the people I have talked to feel their Prius was a great and reliable car. They still put a lot of value on Prius and Toyota as a whole. They just found some other brand that fit their current needs better. All this means is that Toyota will have to take cues from their competitors and decide which way they want to market their vehicles. Rest assured that the Prius is still strong and will be for some time.

 

Tesla does not take trades, so owners of Volts, Prius, etc... who bought Model S have to get rid of them.
Currently, other than the Leaf, Volt is the least expensive out there; $7,500 Fed tax, + State like Colorado has up to $6,000, + GM now cash of up to $5,000, + credits for charging equipment up to $1,000, and others, etc....
GM slashes price of Chevrolet Volt to boost stalling sales | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

 

Hence the delay of the nationwide rollout.

Volt made it quite clear that high-capacity plug-in hybrids won't be accepted by the masses anytime soon... low sales, even with tax-credit and price-slash incentives. There's obviously a market for them, but that category is a niche for enthusiasts rather than a solution for the mainstream. It's a long-term effort that leave a massive product-gap in the meantime.

Toyota is well positioned to fill in that gap. Prius PHV is an augmentation of the existing platform. The under-utilized 60 kW traction motor gladly gobbles up the extra electricity the bigger battery provides. It's not a paradigm shift either. Consumers easily understand the capacity increase and plug pushes MPG quite a bit. They'll enjoy the EV mode as they do now with Stealth mode... because it's a Plug-In Hybrid.

Much of the current struggle Volt is dealing with was self-inflicted. That sounds like a harsh assessment, until you realize that also means there is an opportunity for self-correction. GM will take cues from its own mistakes to reach the audience it couldn't on this current attempt. The catch is, they must be clear about who the vehicle is intended.

The cue to us from supporters was the "Who is the market for Volt?" question continuously being evaded. That unwillingness to answer was a dead giveaway audience expectations were not being met.

 

They only issue I believe a hydraulic hybrid has is in regards to noise. We have some high pressure equipment at work, and they are all loud. I doubt the pressures go as high on the hybrid, but it is a factor to contend with for a consumer vehicle. On the plus side, they won't need a 'bell'.

 

If I could have taken advantage of Volt incentives and if NJ had any incentives, I'd be driving one today, but the PiP incentives were in my range, so that's why I'm driving one and it's working out just fine. The last time I bought gas was on May 25th, I've got 930 miles on the odometer since I bought it and there's still 3 pips left on the gas gauge. I guess you could say the PiP works for me.
And now, you can say the PiP's a star on a new TV show.

 

Knowing the percent would be interesting. Regardless, we have to work on getting the 'want' amount down.

My postings are because calling out Chevy truck sales as evidence of GM's lack of commitment to fuel efficiency is just mis direction and a bit ignorant, and that's not an insult. It's ignoring the reality of the market place. While truck marketing has a big share of the blame for the numbers of truck 'wanters', they aren't solely responsible. Do you think the manufacturers wanted their minivans to be seen as uncool?

It also ignores the fact that GM now has compelling choices in the smaller car segments. Something they were lacking for awhile. They don't get hybrid efficiency numbers, but they aren't the FSPs of their segments. GM increased the Chevy C-segment selection for 2 to 3 models, and if not at the top of sales for their segment, they are selling near it. GM is confident enough in the Sonic platform to use it in a Buick. Do we have a Yaris based Lexus?

Mentioning truck sales is also a bit hypocritical. Toyota would be quite thrilled to sell as many Tundras.

 

What about the lack of choice?

Nothing between the "efficient" traditional vehicles and the only plug-in (which has a very high cost), shadowed by a massive inventory of trucks, is a rather blatant problem. How can drawing attention to that product-gap be considered hypocritical?

What about the reality that all the automakers are attempting to offer choices for that very category? How can that be called ignoring the market?

Treating GM as an exception doesn't make sense. Diversity is a fundamental business necessity.

 

isn't GM going to drop a caddy body on to the Volt next / sometime soon? It seems like I recently read that. Presuming so - and from what I remember reading - it did make me wonder why their next body style/choice wouldn't be something like an SUV or minivan ... a body style that one could at least rationalize might have some arguable practical element. The caddy, on the other hand simply smacks of old people with money to waste ... either because they want the old time feeling of excess power or excess luxury. The thing is ... once Caddies are seven or eight years old - one finds a significant number of them being driven around the ghetto. It's an image GM has long tried to erase. When the Caddy commercial came out claiming something like, "... its not your daddy's car anymore..." ( I guess that meant more power than ever ... or 'big' ride/feel?) it only served to cement that stigma even deeper. No doubt GM's plug-in platform is an expensive platform for alternate vehicle choices - and look how people bitch about high dollar cars getting incentive money . That doesn't seem to bode well with most. However if you incentivize for SUV or minivan plugins with their arguable practical element it seems that might sit a little better with the general populace imo . Isn't it easier to spread a higher cost platform over a big auto versus a smaller one? Is the EV range drop too problematic to drop a pickup/suv body onto the volt? If gm want's to show they truly CAN be the 1st to come up with something ... that'd be a good place to start.
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Chevrolet had an electric pick-up and it used what was pretty much the EV1 drivetrain.
Chevrolet S-10 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Well yeah but an electric vehicle is a far cry from a plugin vehicle ... Especially one that was designed two decades ago back when fewer folks realized we were nearing the tipping point of cheap fossil fuel

 

When I can pick up a used one for less than $17K any EV or Hybrid could be an option but the reality is I can't afford to pay a big upfront price to save on fuel cost over time. I saw my first Volt going down the highway a few days ago. Nice looking car, but out of my price range, plain and simple.

I also waited to on jumping onto the hybrid band wagon to see how they hold up. The Prius seems to have a good track record. How many Volt cars are driving around with over 200,000 miles? Not many if any. Time will tell how all this works out but with GM's track record with EV cars I am not in a big hurry to go with them, yet. I will give them 10 years or so to prove themselves.

 

Ford, Honda, and Toyota are the only automakers to have offered a hybrid for a substantial length of time. Ford had a total of 3 models since their first hybrid on the market. Honda had hybrids on the market longer, and had only 4 models in that time. Then we know Toyota's line up of 6(didn't count Lincoln, so neither Lexus). They all started with just one hybrid model. Honda brought a second to market 2 years later. They also ended up having battery issues. It took Ford and Toyota 4 to 5 years before they had a second hybrid on the market.

Of the other mainstream, low to middle market makes to bring a hybrid to market there is Hyundai/Kia and VW. Sonata arrived around the time of the Volt, and the Jetta just did. A Volt redesign should be arriving soon. Perhaps GM will share more on their hybrid plans then.

The other GM models suffer from being overweight. GM knows this, but we have to wait for model redesigns and see how much they improve.

GM isn't the only one selling trucks. Ford sold more F150s. They sell more F150s than Camrys. Their other vehicle models tend to be on par with Chevy's for fuel economy. Do they get a pass because they offer one more hybrid than GM?

The point I have been trying to make is that, while the auto makers played the part, the problem with the high number of trucks being sold is a societal one. If GM decided to no longer sell them, the people would just buy Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, and Nissans. So pointing to the number of Silverados sold as proof GM not serious on fuel efficiency is wrong. The 2014 Silverado arrives soon, and will be the class leader in fuel economy. What is the Tundra's future there?

Not clear about the ignoring the market.

Who's treating them as an exception?
I would say their car diversity has improved since old GM. Is there any evidence, beyond not having models out right now, that they aren't diversifying?

 

With using a bigger auto, I think the market is shifting to smaller with the upcoming generation. Besides, most of the C-segment compacts are almost midsize. The Cruze actually is classified so. It has 2 more cubic feet of passengner/cargo space than the Volt, and 1 less than the Malibu. They would have to go to the Impala platform for a noticable increase in the car's size, and how much more would a large sized Volt cost?

Wasn't there a Volt wagon/crossover concept?

As for a pick up, most of the truck wanters aren't fond of trucks derived from a car. Go to a truck forum and ask their opinion of the Ridgeline. GM might also be content with Via Trucks taking the risk on a truck plug in.Does the Volt have a tow rating?

There some among the needers and wanters that wish there was a larger selection of smaller trucks. CAFE might actually kill them though because of the footprint based fuel economy targets. GM may start small diesel engine production in the US, and speculation of the engine going into the Colorado. Diesel seems to be the most viable solution to increasing truck fuel economy without compromising payload and towing.