Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

I won't pretend to know what happened behind the scene because I don't. Too bad Toyota was unable to change the structure of the tax incentive. It sounds like they were given the choice only in the battery size.

Big battery cripples the plugin vehicle. It is a limitation of Lithium battery and Toyota knew it. It makes the interior smaller, makes the vehicle heavier leading to lower gas MPG resulting in higher emission, etc. It also create tax credit dependency, especially for a vehicle that would be sold across the globe where such incentive wasn't available.

As much as I want higher EV range and use cleaner electricity to cut down my carbon footprint (tailpipe and upstream), I accept the reality of the limitation of Lithium ion battery. The optimum configuration is in PiP that allows EV operation in the city. It allows the same cargo space and the same gas MPG for longer trips. EPA and US Department of Energy said PiP has the lowest emission (national average) and it is a practical 5 seater midsize.

The failure of the current plugin tax credit can be seen in the result. The sales of Volt is much lower than expected. Leaf and Tesla EV with bigger battery aren't getting more incentive they deserve. To add insult to the injury, a well designed plugin hybrid that deserves success (PiP) isn't selling either. This will make a sticking point to the anti-plugin crowd. They can now say "See? People don't want to buy plugin cars even with the tax incentive".

 

You can always sell, and sell even more if the price is right, and how much you can afford to lose on each one. This is a better month for the Volt, but I would not brag it takes this much to sell.

June’s deals from Chevy on the Volt: 2,698 Sold
$2,000 off + 0% financing for 60 or 72 months
$3,000 off + 0% financing for up to 48 months
$4,000 off for 2013
$5,000 off for 2012
$7,500 tax credit+
$ ----- States & other incentives
$ continuation of $1,000 off in “conquest” deals of lease conversions from other manufacturers vehicles

 

Volt with $7,500 tax credit is selling at the rate of the Classic Prius without any tax incentive.

When the Iconic Prius (Gen2) qualified for $3,150 tax credit in 2006, the sales exploded and shortly after became mainstream.

To achieve similar success, Volt Gen2 has to be midsize, more efficient and faster than gen1 (the jump from Gen1 Prius to Gen2 achieved). Tax incentive will need to increase as well.

I hope you see the challenge. Some of us saw it the moment we saw the final spec of the Volt. It was too expensive and inefficient for a compact car. There is a lot of work cut out for GM and I hope they can make a big jump with Gen2 Volt.

$11.5 to $12.5k incentive from 2012 and 2013 model is crazy. It also force other plugin cars to drop their price. Which in turn hurt the resale value. The way I see it, the bubble will burst and Volt will hurt the entire plugin industry.

They still have 2012 models in stock?

 

Traditional cars have always been the competition, not other automaker hybrids or plug-ins.

Cruze, Malibu, and Impala continue to dominate.

That's the reality of the situation.

 

If accurate, available new 2012 Volts are about 273. http://tinyurl.com/l45qhjk

 

Yet, they'll start the production of 2014 models in two weeks.

I see more discount coming.

 

Cadillac ELR is really nice, but mid 60's is Tesla Model S 60 Kwh territory.

 

Simultaneously, the Iraq War exploded and gas prices jumped. Gas prices generally climbed up aggressively when the Iconic was introduced in late 2003 until around 2008.

The indirect war subsidy for the Iconic Prius was far larger than any subsidy that the Volt will ever get.

Vehicle Technologies Office: Fact #741: August 20, 2012 Historical Gasoline Prices, 1929-2011

 

Why faster? PHVs have to be sports cars to be successful?
Inefficient for a compact car. That's a stretch. What compacts achieve better fuel economy? The Prius C, Insight2, and...

I know the true success of the Volt will depend on the second generation. Most of us are willing to wait and see what that gen 2 is before declaring success or failure.

As for the PPI, Toyota doesn't want to sell it or anything with a plug. There hasn't been a peep about what the EV range of the next gen plug in will or even if it will be offered. Most of their alt-fuel news has been concerning their FCV. There was some announcements on batteries, but that isn't plug in specific. They are needed for hybrids and FCVs too.

 

Any facts to back up your FUD and negativism? I doubt it as the Volt is, once again, likely to be the monthly Plug-in sales champ (2698 sold in june) and is once back in the lead for year to date plug-in sales. It is overwhelming clear that the Volt matches consumer buying preferences better than any other plug-in -- both sales, award and things like the Sierra club ranking, supporting that view. No effort to throw FUD or divert attention will change that.

 

Not saying it needs to be faster to be successful. Gen2 Prius is about 2 seconds faster than Gen1 from 0-60 mph. Just pointing out that it was one of the improvement that brought in more sales (along with a list of other improvements).

There are midsize plugins that are more efficient than Volt. C-Max and Fusion Energi are rated 100 MPGe on electricity and 43 MPG on gas. Better than Volt's 98 MPGe / 37 MPG.

Accord hybrid is rated 115 MPGe on electricity and 46 MPG on gas.

PiP EV city miles are around Leaf's (130 MPGe) and 49 MPG on the highway.

I have see you and a few other repeating this. Do you have a source or is it just your conjecture?

 

Actually the volt price drop its more likely a response to the dropping of prices of the Leaf, which is the only other serious plug-in. Volt sales sagged after Nissan dropped their entry level Leaf price by more than 8K to $28,800 before tax credit (and it still qualifies for the 7500 credit). After their price drop Leaf sales took off and overtook volt sales. Its nice to see that with only 4/5K incentives the volt regained the sale lead without as drastic a price cut as the Leaf.

I find it ironic that people that are moaning about some price cuts are the same ones that moaned when the car was lot offered at a price <30K (after credit), which was GMs original goal before the crash/bankruptcy/recession. With the company again solvent they can finally afford to underwrite the technology to help drive/establish the market.

With respect to fuel efficiency, you can try to spin it any way you want, but no other cars other than pure BEVs have a fleet median over 170MPG. There is a reason that a eco-oriented group like the Sierra club ranked Volt the best plug in.. and its not the sporty driving experience. As in the OP's cited article

The energi twins only earned 3.5 and the Honda Accord Plug-in tied with the Fisker Karma and Toyota Prius Plug-in at 3 leaves.

Its the synergy of the battery + ICE that matters.. overall actual fuel efficiency where the Volt leaves the others burning gas. And if you care about CO2, a bigger battery as in the Volt allow one to shift more energy to renewable energy than any other PHEV. For some the PiP is ideal, but its a small fraction of overall drivers.

 

It did it got it front loaded and dropped the minimum to 4kwh, the size they wanted to build. They rejected the idea of bigger batteries, but had plenty of time to add a bigger battery to the phv. The tax credits were passed before the prototypes. The production phv had an even smaller battery than the prototype. Only GM and Toyota were in the room. Congress wanted them to build phevs.

Toyota chose to use a smaller battery, inspite of the incentives for bigger batteries congress had wanted. It got the rules rewritten to subsidize its smaller battery. Toyota is one of the most savy players when it comes to get government subsidies. It is no bumpkin, that was discriminated against, this was a targeted incentive, hat you got when you bought your car.

These are the bad old lines that I think are hurting toyota. Really a battery with twice the capacity might add 150lbs, less than many passengers. Would that cripple the car? THe prototypes had more than that extra weight. They can't think like plug-in owners, and want only to provide more of a gasoline car experience. Hence the down play of plug-ins and the push again last week for fuel cell futures.
Why Tesla is Beating GM, Ford and Toyota - Electric Cars - Forbes

It was pushing these small batteries when it poured lots of money into the IQ EV, but this is not the market. Toyota has to stop fighting to keep batteries small. Its 2013! They can easily add a 7 or 8 kwh in the next gen prius phv and capture more of the tax incentive as well as actually satisfy customers.

There are incentives in Japan as well as the US, and they built it for the rest of the world is a total fail. They are not meeting sales expections, because they are targetting traditional gas car buyers that don't really want to plug in. These people don't really want a plug.

 

Because of the disparity between EPA and real world with the non plug ins, I've been waiting for more data from the wild to see if the Energi numbers are trustworthy.

While their market share is improving, the majority of people aren't limiting their car choice to a hybrid. The only non hybrid to match the Volt's combined mpg.

And the Volt owner can do the same selection of mode if they choose to maximize their efficiency. At which point, the car's numbers will better than EPA too.

Until Toyota comes out and shares their plug in plans, it should be treated as gospel.

California is a major plug in market, and new BEV models are coming to market. The increased competition is going affect Volt pricing.

 

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Let's post something that has to do with cars in order to calm this thread a bit.

Toyota June Sales Overview​

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Toyota reported its June 2013 sales with 195,235 vehicles sold, an increase of 9.8 percent over June 2012.​

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Toyota itself posted June 2013 sales of 173,880 units, up 10.2 percent year-over-year. ​

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For the first half of the year, Toyota reported sales of 1,108,791 units, up 6 percent year-over-year.​

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Lexus reported June 2013 sales of 21,355 units, up 10.8 percent on a DSR basis, and up 6.7 percent over last year on a raw volume basis.​

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Toyota June Sales Highlights​

• June Hybrid sales increased 19 percent
• Camry is best-selling car in America with best June since 2008. 35,870 vehicles sold, up 11.7 percent
• Prius family sales up 10 percent for the month
• Prius liftback sales were up 22.1 percent for the month
• All-new Avalon sales nearly tripled for the month
• All-new RAV4 sales up about 36 percent for its best-ever June
• Tacoma and Tundra post double-digit gains, with June sales of 14,023 and 9,759, respectively
• Lexus ES up 50.3 percent in June with 5,680 vehicles sold and up 83 percent in first half

​

 

You are mad because Toyota lowered the cargo floor flat?

Prototype raised floor:


Production flat cargo floor:


Ford added more battery as you are suggesting with C-Max Energi:

Congress did not have reports like this or this, since they didn't come out until 2011-2012. The law makers probably assumed that the bigger the battery, the better. It may be true for EVs but plugin hybrid is a totally different animal. It is counter-intuitive but it takes awhile to get it.

Prius is about lowering emission (tailpipe and beyond) through efficiency enabled by technology that is cost effective and practical. It is not about maximizing federal tax credit.

In case, you are not aware, the PiP prototype had lower gas MPG than the production model. Dropping the 5.2kWh to 4.4kWh battery made it more efficient and gave more cargo room, without sacrificing EV range. It still had the same usable energy in the battery pack.

You are bad mouthing Toyota (for designing PiP) because you live in a big state (Texas)? You weren't the intended target for this generation of PiP (perhaps the next gen). Unless you are a city dweller in a big city like Houston.

You claim to be pro-electric yet you are stalling the adoption of PiP by bad mouthing it. That's just silly and counterproductive. Just accept that PiP isn't for you and promote it for those intended for - EV city and HV highway.

Toyota is pursuing all types of green solutions. They are not betting their farm on just one type.

 

You can drive the Volt in the city traffic with EV only and use gas on the highway. You'll just have extra EV miles unused (unless you drive 4 hours in 9 mph traffic or 2 hours @ 19 mph) and pay premium gas at 40 MPG.

I hope I am driving home the point that EV city driving doesn't require a lot of range. 12 miles range is good for an hour of driving and that could be a typical city dweller commute.

 

COme on there, I am just pointing out facts, I am not mad.

The facts are that toyota chose to get less tax credit money, they are getting subsidized at the highest rate per kwh as any of the car companies In fact the tax credit is now likely more than what they spend on the batteries.

I am a little tired of you pretending that the US government has a plot against toyota in this. Toyota decided to put a small battery in there, in spite of the subsidies. They claimed that the batteries weren't ready, which hurts the sales.

All I am saying it is time for you and John to get with reality. Toyota needs to put a bigger battery in the next generation if they want to be competitive with plug ins. This cry baby stuff that the government is against toyota really is childish. You made a prediction that sales with a tiny battery would be good. They are not. We have data. Stop trying to pretend its the governments fault, or that Toyota made the right decision.

 

I have a mirror for you.

I listed 3 reasons for the current PiP sales. You are focusing on just one and twisting my words to make your childish points while calling me childish.

My point is the failure of the current tax credit incentive structure to promote the clean and practical plugin. I posted some reports pointing out why. I am not saying it is the government's fault. Don't be silly. It is one of the contributing factor. PiP has only been on the market for a year and the sales can still take off, especially due to the owner's dat.

The current incentive structure was totally different from the prior successful one which was based on the gallons saved vs non-hybrid. The current plugin incentive is based on the battery size. You guys claim that it is an investment in the battery technology, yet it was capped at Volt battery size. What do you make out of it?

 

I don't have Hold mode on my older Volt so I just drive it on city streets and then get on the highway and put it in cruise control.

My numbers from June and a recent cherry-picked daily drive with only my overnight battery charge are below.

This works out to a 30 day average of 46.87 HV mpg. The EV efficiency of 25 kWh/100 miles is about the same as your 132 EV MPGe. This includes my road trip to TGB4 and the inability to charge at work while they are installing new 240v stations.

My single day number below from last week was 50 miles on the battery and 50 HV mpg.