Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

Then why announce a June release? Heck, if nationwide availability was a goal, why wait that long? It debut at the end of Feb 2012. No logistic reason for not expanding the availability at the beginning of 2013.

But it is. Your wishing that it was structured on your priorities isn't going to make it so.

The incentives didn't make Toyota fill the PPI with doodads and widgets in order to bloat the price. If they wanted to reach more customers, they would have offered the base PPI at the same level of features as the base Prius.

The discussion started because of poor sentence structure in an article about the Sierra Club's rankings.

It is Toyota's fault for getting caught in such a way.

The gen2 arrived in 2004. The first after market plug in kits started appearing in 2005. People started asking for a factory option plug in since the same time. Toyota ignored their customers, and only got serious about a PHV Prius when the Volt turned out not to be vaporware.

If they had started on the PHV back when the people started asking for it, Toyota would be leading PHV now. Instead they are playing catch up with a PHV Prius that doesn't offer much more over a commercial conversion kit for about the same price as said kit. We shouldn't be shocked that the PPI isn't doing well. Many of the people that wanted it got tired of waiting, and got a conversion. Or they moved on to PHVs with more EV experience, or made the leap to a pure BEV.

As to Toyota's concept plug in, any word on when it will come to market?

 

It would probably help if folks could actually drive the 12 miles without the engine burning gasoline. That seems to be one of the major complaints.

Maybe when Tesla designs and builds a drivetrain for them like the RAV4 EV.

 

They obviously did in the gen III phv.

Your bias said that the small battery would make bigger sales than a car like the volt. How is that working out? Yes, I am biased in the face of facts. I predicted these would become facts. What can't I see beyond. Is 583 june sales mainstream, targetted to get the most buyers?

I am anxiously awaiting an improved prius phv. I hope they are seeing the same facts as I am, and will provide a better EV experience. Can we agree to that, or do you think they should stick to the current small battery design.

They have actually worked amazingly well. Nissan, Tesla, GM, and Ford have nation wide roll outs of plug-ins. Hopefully Toyota will soon roll out to some of the other states. This has not cost the government much money. They took a lesson from MITI in the late 1990s and there are a great deal of choices. I expect 1M plug-in cars by 2018. These would not have happened without the incentives.

What is your point for wanting to change incentives now? What is the point of bringing them up on this thread? Why do you keep bringing them up? Why should we look at prices not using the incentives. Do you think we should say, if only the government was fair to toyota and paid them to distribute the prius phv, and gave them extra money it would be a better world.

I think the 15 mile range toyota marketing put out before the figures were released didn't help either. When you claim 15 just before the EPA tests are released, and you get 11 and use gas to get there, its a problem. Ford also has this foot and mouth disease when it came to promoting EPA figures on the c-max. It was further harmed by these press releases toyota keeps putting out that says batteries are not ready for bevs so they are working on fuel cells.

If toyota wants the next generation to succeed, they need to market to the initial adopters, and yes that means more of an EV experience, which means a bigger battery. They can not continue to bad mouth these batteries. If they would do these press releases for fuel cells and talk about plug-ins being today's solution, and the technology is here, it would help. They can't just toss the minimum sized battery into an existing design, and claim it was optimised. That just has not worked.

 

Again the investment was to pull technology, not just buying gas savings directly. Yes it is battery biased, because that was the recommendation on how to pull the technology forward.

The prior incentives did virtually nothing to improve technology.. how much advancement in MPG was there from the prior incentives? It was pretty much free money for Toyota as they did little to advance after that. It may have helped with market acceptance, but not technological advancement. And by the way, the old incentives were also not about gas savings. The maximum credit was for the Prius, but the GM two mode hybrids, the Hylander, or the Escape actually saved more gallons compared to their base vehicle. They had lower label MPG, but greater reduction in gas used.


How many significant advances are associated with the current incentives? We have plugins from many manufacturers. How many other vehicle/lines will benefit from the core technologies from GM, Nissan and Fort. The impact should be measured over the next decade and many vehicles lines, not the gas savings of one vehicle to a hypothetical car. And even there, the median PiP gas usage over a 12000 mile year is 171.4, the Volts median gas usage would be 70.0 gallons, so the median PiP is using about 2.5 times as much gas. So the smaller batteries like the PiP lead to minimal tech advance, use nearly 2.5x as much gas. Bigger batteries batteries are yielding a much greater reduction in gas but more importantly they are an investment in technology that will change the way we drive and pay off in reduced gas for decades of new cars. The latter is what the incentives were about -- the direct gas savings on 200K cars is just the tip of the iceberg.

The much higher gas usage, is more of the reason that Sierra club rated it down, smaller batteries mean you cannot shift much of that to renewable energy.

The incentives were not about the best car at the time or a quick hack, but rather investment in technology development for the future. Also note that even bigger batteries and pure BEVs were also invested in through the battery technology development program and other advance vehichle tech programs ($6B loan to ford) , not just the these credits.

Have you actually read the sierra clubs car guide. Nothing there suggests they don't understand MPGe.. what leads you to make that accusation?

I think the Sierra club and folks at Argonne and other national labs that informed the policy makers understand the effectiveness way better than most, probably better than you seem to.

 

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Smart is planning one for their ED this summer. Should we start a pool on who, the PPI or Smart ED, reach nationwide availability first?

Toyota got complacent. Now that it appears they have lost the lead in regards to PHVs and BEVs, they seem to be betting on pulling a Nissan in regards to fuel cells.

 

Ok, experts, reasons why this car is not going into a normal production, since EV range sells plug-ins but not deep discounts; the only other vehicle with Volt's powertrain, comments!

First Test ELRs Roll Off The Line | Page 3 | PriusChat

 

Don't see many experts wandering these pages. Lots of Guessperts.
Also I don't see many saying discounts don't sell cars.. I certainly think they do. Price matters, but its not the only thing or everyone would be driving subcompact, $15K cars. What really matters is perceived value for the dollar where I think the volt is pretty sweet.

The article is citing a rather old guess at prices, But the ELR price, if at 60-70K, the price is too close to a Telsa, which has already become a status symbol car. It is not likely to offer a major improvement in efficiency and only a modes improvement in drive quality (as the Volt is quite good). The ELR will sell mostly to those that want the caddy name, the higher "luxury" elements and/or or whom tesla will not cut it on range. But it also is a small statement that they are not ceeding the high-end market to Tesla. But I Also think that GM did not forsee the free supercharger and battery swapping when they started down the ELR path (I did not), so the limited run is a balance of not giving up but not going too far. Higher price may help keep it as a status symbol/halo even if fewer are sold.


I expect the Gen2 Volt will de-content a bit on the luxury items to shave more off the cost.. and leave the ELR as the option for that want luxury in an EREV. I think the limited run is a way to state up front they don't expect to sell many and maybe to get people to not put off being it until "later". From the forum at gm-volt.com I can a see many who will upgrade to it .. they traded caddy, BMW and Audi for a Volt and some will move upmarket.

 

I believe they did. They started in 2007 but ran into cost problem with producing Lithium-ion battery. Even the standard Prius was revert back to NiMh. To correct that, they bought Sanyo and using those cells in the current PiP, two years after the Gen3 introduction.

I strongly disagree that the production PiP doesn't offer much over the conversion kits. Which one were you referring to?

If the gas engine starts on regular basis, then the owner isn't using as the intended design (EV city / HV highway).

It is likely due to the lack to information of the design goal. I could see how not understanding the design goal could lead to dissatisfaction.

If we line up starting from the first month of sales, it is inconclusive. You can say it is not doing as well as I thought and I have listed a few reasons why in my prior posts.

I too hope so, even if the Gen4 dedicated plugin is coming in 2015. We need more people to drive PiP and get the words out.

My point about changing the incentive structure is to cut down more on gasoline consumption. The more plugin sales, the better. Currently, most of the incentive money is going toward Volt and the return is not as good as it could be.

Technology specific investments were done in the R&D through loans and grants. Consumer level incentives were focused on the broader/common goal. That was changed with the current plugin tax credit and making it look like an extension of GM bailout.

 

I think you missed some important points in our conversation about what sells.

Initial adopters are willing to pay more for EV experience. Price matters, and this is price to the consumer, not price to the manufacturer.

The ELR does not enhance the volts EV experience at all, in fact in EV mode it is a little worse because it has a worse power to weight ratio and a lower range. It does add some better styling, luxury touches, and a blended mode with better acceleration. These things would be addative to volt sales, but there is a big competitive problem.

The ELR is not much less expensive than the tesla S 60 KWH, which has a better EV experience, free super chargers, better acceleration and handling, and IMHO more luxury and better styling. The ELR must therefore squeeze to a small segment because of the competitiveness of tesla. Here there will be some GM loyalist, but many open minded initial adopters will choose the Tesla S over the ELR.

 

Plug In Supply seems to be the only major one left. Plug-In Conversion Specifications, Features, and Warranty | Plug-In Supply
Main points
It fits under the cargo floor, so no loss of usable space.
Still have access to the spare(though you now have to remove 4 battery modules).
EV range appears to be double.
EV speed is limited to 30 to 40 mph of the EV limit for the gen3. Gen2 can exceed it.
Depending on the amount of work you want to do, it's $5000 to $7000 for the 5kWh kit. Which is the usable amount of the battery.

The only thing it doesn't do as well as the PPI is the EV speed, but you won't be doing 60mph with hard acceleration in the city.

If Toyota meant to have the EV only for city use, why have a max EV speed of 62? Why allow the battery pack to be drained propelling the car at highway speeds? Why not limit the EV speed to the fify-something it is in Japan and Europe?

Like EV mode on the earlier models, we don't get city EV(believe that's the name) that allow pure EV. So hit the gas to hard, or go up a steep hill, or what other reason people have had the engine start, and the ICE will start.

What is great about the Prius is that anybody can get in it and get good fuel economy without extra effort. If the PPI requires extra effort to get the intended benefits out of it, then it is a step back in design compared to the Prius.

 

I just don't see the EPA evaluations as discouraging (or encouraging) PiP sales. Other than the limited EV range and top speed, the Prius is clearly superior from both an efficiency and pollution point compared to other PHEV contenders. Unfortunately, the range is the big drawback and what I look at before getting into the minutia of EPA methodology. I suspect I am not alone here.

The battle is between using gas or electricity to power the car. My entire justification for spending the extra $$$ for getting a PHEV vs regular Prius is to not use any gas for the daily commute. If I have a PHEV with a 50 mile range and a two stroke engine, I would still pollute less than a PiP on the daily commute, no matter how clean the PiP burns gas.

 

I like there there are at least choices now.

The PIP wasn't right for me. It works for people like John and Dennis. The Volt works better for me. Some people may find the CMAX Energi to be a better fit.

In my situation the Volt has led to a reduction in gasoline use by quite a margin. It would be overkill for Dennis or bisco.

 

Can share the source of the facts you are seeing, and we are not adding the 2 Energis this time.
Do you have a survey of the general public in favor of EV experience or we are making it up?
Still not convinced that only deep discounts sell plug-ins at the moment.

 

Someone could be mislead by EPA label that PiP can only go 6 miles on EV.

It also does not provide the condition where/how the gas engine blended in. So, someone without the detail EPA test background will not be able to think outside the box to think of running EV in city traffic only. MPGe rating for the EV city cycle was not given.

From what I have seen in the state of FL, places are pretty far apart, except in city like Fort Lauderdale. PiP may not be able to cover a typical commute there in full EV miles. Perhaps this is why FL was not picked as a launch state.

That's one way to look at it. Two fuels in PiP create synergy due to different characteristics. They need to work together to achieve otherwise impossible doing it alone. They are not enemies but a team. That's how I look at it.

I use them as a video game or as driving a manual transmission for fun. Insteading of changing gears, I change the fuel (propulsion system). You can also let it auto blend like how John "just drive it".

Using only electricity in weekdays is one of PiP design goal. Unfortunately, the current PiP based on Gen3 platform does not meet your range requirement. You are one of the 60% that don't.

Hopefully, Gen4 dedicated plugin platform could meet your needs and wants.

Regarding the 50 miles EV range with 2 stroke ICE... It really depends on the source of electricity. If we use the national average (weighted by kWh according to fuel source), 100 MPGe EV mile is about as clean as 50 MPG Prius.

For EV mile to be cleaner than Prius gas engine, 1) The grid needs more clean up (already happenning).

2) More efficient EV miles, better than 110 MPGe

3) Run electricity only in city cycle. Highway cycle requires more electricity per mile due to wind resistence

We also have to consider the efficiency increase in Gen4 HSD ICE. So, the production NS4 will need to go through a balancing act for optimal efficiency running on either fuel.

 

If someone can be mislead by the 6 miles AER, they likely haven't done any homework on the car. Being uniformed, they would probably have other nonfactual reasons not to buy.

Unfortunately for the PPI, and other PHVs and some hybrids, the EPA test has to be catered to the lowest common denominator. They have to test it for the person that gets in, starts it up, and only uses the steering wheel and pedals once in gear. This means no EV to HV mode juggling or even using an ECO mode if it isn't the default one on start up.

I agree all PHVs should the MPGe spread, and not just the combined, for electric consumption.

 

Yep, unfortunately, 2012 Volt models are stuck on the dealers' lots. Dealers really want them off the lots to make much needed room for newer inventory.

I really can't blame the dealers.

DBCassidy

John, good points brought up about GM sales. GM covering up disappointing Volt sales can not be hidden. Does GM think the buying public is that naïve?

Pro GM backers on this site just don't get it or flatly refuse to start reconizing the cold hard facts.

DBCassidy

Really?

DBCassidy

GM & logic - no such thing.

DBCassidy

The Volt was a good concept, sales numbers and a more competitive market proves Volt sales are fizzling out.

DBCassidy

I agree with Toyotas' approach of pursuing all types of green technology.

GM and the Volt: not so, all their eggs are in one basket. This is clearly being seen in the market.

DBCassidy

Discount is mandatory, non-moving Volt inventory has to be moved off the lots. Dealers also need to contend with returning expired leased Volts returning to their lots. This is a tough situation for dealers to contend with.

DBCassidy

Perhaps the reason you do not know what GM will do with the Volt, is because even GM doesn't know.

DBCassidy

Yep, you said it "price matters" This is seen in the eyes of potential buyers, dealers who are stuck with increased, non-moving Volt inventories. Potential buyers and dealers then focus on Cruze, Impala products and they are moving off dealers' lots into the buyers' driveways.

What's wrong with the above picture?

DBCassidy

 

EPA rating has City and Highway. They do test for different driving conditions/cycles. Plugin hybrids have very wide range in result depending on the driving conditions (range/speed/charging pattern/etc).

Since they have two fuels. At minimum, there should be 4 numbers. EV City, EV Highway, Gas City, and Gas Highway.

 

All I know is I see a large number of people buying Volts that used to be Prii owners. I believe the Prius rates as the most commonly traded in car for a Volt.

 

I remember GM bragging about that conquest sales. I believe the second on the list was BMW and it was only a few percentage away. It may have swing the other way. GM has been quiet about it, so go figure.

One of the group Prius attracted was "show boaters". I believe they have moved onto the Volt since it displays the bigger trophy MPG number.

 

Or because it uses a lot less gasoline....

I got it because its fun to drive and more luxurious feeling. That's showboating. lol